UK Election!

biuking catastrophe – so £15000 pa for two junior school kids – still not affordable for middle earners is it?  1/3 – 1/2 of two middle earners disposable income ish?

Where did I say junior school kids? And where did I mention 2 kids? I’m not arguing that it’s easily affordable – was merely pointing out that not all private schools cost a King’s ransom. On the other hand, we have 2 public schools in the town (one for boys and one for girls) that cost considerably more. Plus Radley College nearby where the fees are very definitely not for the middle income earners. (Radley College is currently £17k per TERM!! 🫨)

After all that, I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of middle earners are not the type to be sending their kids to private schools anyway. Maybe those with only 1 kid might make that sacrifice (I know a couple that did). But it’s also fair to say there is a significant number of people in this country who are earning above that £30,000 middle earner income – clearly enough to keep most of the public schools in pupils.

“I would think thats the sort of sensible solution.  Although knowing how gov works: Elected July 24, Budget April 25 – announced from April 2026 – so really only school term Sep 26 on… and thats assuming they are “quick”.

The word in the sector is that VAT will be backdated to pretty much day one of a labour govt. Those that can afford it, so the richest parents and those least affected by the increase in fees are busily paying all their fees in advance right now to circumvent the rise. Some are paying ALL fees right till their children have left 6th form.

Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport?

Stop threatening me with a good time and start a party already.

apologies – its the “year 7 – 11”  that confused me.  I read that as ages 7-11

Stop threatening me with a good time and start a party already.

🤣

did you read that recent report into the environmental impact of data servers.

I’ve read a few articles on the power consumption regarding them along with who owns them and how they are operated by tech companies in the USA, currently reading Vassal State – How America runs Britain by Angus Hanton and whilst I knew we were pretty **** I didn’t realise just how **** we actually are, we as a country own the princely sum of sweet **** all, since the mid 80’s we have to all intents and purposes sold everything, So it’s no wonder our tax income is fubar.

Education and healthcare are special cases within society, since they form the very foundation of the social contract – everyone should have an equal chance at a decent life.

While I think most people believe that in principle, in practice they’ll do whatever they can to get their own kids every leg up possible. Private schools, nepotism for work placements, house deposits, etc. Hard to blame them really, to not do so while everyone else does.

So, yeah, it varies.

The fact that it varies reveals a lot about the pricing and what the impact of charging vat would be.

Schools don’t charge as little as possible, they charge as much as they can. If that wasn’t the case the prices would all be more or less the same.

If they have to charge vat – they’ll continue to charge as much as they think their customers will pay. Which might be exactly the same as they charge now.

Which is why our politicians need to take charge of this and copy successful countries where these things are not allowed :-)  No private medicine, no private schools are good for a country .

I understand parents urges to do the best they can but opening doors for one kid slams them in another kids face

https://labourlist.org/2024/05/labour-muslim-constituencies-general-election-2024/

The 16 constituencies LabourList found labelled as “battleground areas” were:

Bethnal Green and Stepney
Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North
Birmingham Ladywood
Birmingham Perry Barr
Birmingham Yardley
Blackburn
Bolton South and Walkden
Bradford East
Bradford South
Bradford West
Huddersfield
Leicester South
Luton North
Luton South and South Bedfordshire
Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton
Slough

Personally I think there might possibly be some unexpected surprises on election night which no one is currently  really talking about. But we shall see – there might be no surprises at all!

Which is why our politicians need to take charge of this and copy successful countries where these things are not allowed

You appreciate that governments can’t just do whatever they want, right?

Interesting views tjagain, don’t you think we should also ban second home owners as well or does your socialist utopian view just extend to things that don’t impact you.

Also please consider that a lot of kids that go to private schools have the fees paid by companies and also UK forces. It is likely that an increase in fees will just be passed on. There also need to have a provision for boarding that I don’t believe is routinely provided in the state sector. I know there are some state grammar schools that offer boarding options, but I am sure they are the exception.

Personally I think they should always have been treated like any other business, but the idea that this will somehow benefit the state sector and that private schools will no longer exist will not be a likely outcome in my view.

@molgrips You’re missing a democratic between “that” & “governments”. Those that are despotic or tyranny’s will do what they wish regardless and objecting is likely to get the objector disappeared.

I think you’re going to have to explain that one for us, because as a statement that doesn’t stand up.

The political choice is fund insufficiently. IF the wages for teachers, funding for the buildings and education facilities is there pupils will excel. Currently the teaching staff are demoralised and poorly paid leading to it being a vocation not a sensible career choice with the really talented buggering off when they get tired leaving those who are marking time.

Buildings – hopefully we’ve been paying attention to the concrete beam problems of recent times.

Facilities books, paper, timber, chemicals to allow lessons to be held in practical as well as theoretical subjects. Plus well equipped sporting facilities, workshops and sundry other things.

A properly comprehensive (meaning – including or dealing with all or nearly all elements or aspects of something) education for all.

And if the super-rich have to retreat into their ghettos and don’t mix with us plebs over time they will see they need to join in or get left behind because the brightest and best will be coming from state schools. It’s a two maybe three parliamnetary term scheme to effect permanent change as radical as anything Thatcher wanted to do.

Let’s ban all individual choice, hey why not ban individual thought as well. We will get equality of opportunity and outcome, and it will crap. Stopping the more well off accessing private service will not improve public service one jot, it’s just being selfish, if I can’t have something why should someone else. Stop with the side show, if we want batter public services concentrate on that rather than blaming others, it’s straight out of the Tory playbook.

Equality of opportunity is what matters and were a long way from that today, things were better for social mobility in the 80s for God’s sake. Stop fixating on people that have done alright, it’s not their fault your life doesn’t meet expectations, their success is not at your expense, save the hate for governments, especially the current one, who have made they whole playing field a lot less level.

We ban plenty of things that are bad for society. Drugs, guns, pesticides, E numbers.

Engines of inequality are just as corrosive to society.

there might possibly be some unexpected surprises

What?! Unexpected surprises? I guess those will be the ones I’ve not predicted? Possibly.

This pundit lark is less easy than it looks.

Interesting views tjagain, don’t you think we should also ban second home owners as well or does your socialist utopian view just extend to things that don’t impact you.

Banning?  controlling well perhaps.;  Mines a rental.  I provide a good quality home at 3/4 of market rent.  Id be in favour of a ban on most short term rentals, proper controlled rents and proper enforcement of standards for the accommodation.   Of course I could have saved the £12000 I spent on fully insulating it and refitting to a high standard and I could charge $3000 pa more in rent.  but I prefer to try to be a decent person  I am fully aware of my privilege on this one.

Stumpy – other countries do not have private education or medicine precisely for the reasons outlined.  These things reinforce inequality – and these are happier countries with a higher standard of living than the UK

It’s not a personal thing tjagain, but just an illustration of something that is probably a far bigger issue in society than the state vs private school or private healthcare vs the NHS. Personally I think there should be a severe penalty for second home ownership especially when young people will be denied the opportunity to buy and this is a big factor. I would also welcome rent control and the UK is way behind other countries in this area.

However I also think you can’t cherry pick policies from other countries as you have to look at the complete picture. It is far too simple to believe that you can stop people from using private healthcare as they will just go to other countries. This already exists with some people going abroad for surgery and the NHS has to deal with the issues that arise.

IIRC at least one of the Scandi countries has no private schools.

https://x.com/BladeoftheS/status/1799867295512338920?t=NmdpMrE-YrToVWgm88XmXQ&s=19

Private schools and helathcare would not be needed if the state provision was as good as it could be.  Canada has no private healthcare

BTW – folk like my tenant prefer to rent not buy – and her rent is £500 a month less than a mortgage on the flat would be.

Let’s ban all individual choice, hey why not ban individual thought as well.

This is called reductio ad absurdum and it is a rubbish rhetorical technique. A balance needs to be found in every country, I do not believe we have the balance right in this country.

Personally I’m not in favour of banning private schools (or health)….the government shouldn’t be in the business of telling people what they can or can’t spend their money on (well, within reason).

But people who choose to send their children to fee paying schools shouldn’t whine when those businesses are treated equitably.  If they suddenly find they can’t afford it, tough.  Maybe the schools could suck up the additional costs themselves?

On healthcare – the tories long term aim has been to try to create a two tier system where much is done privately with the NHS as a safety net.  they are just about there as routine surgery and investigations now have such long waiting lots of folk end up going private.  Back when waiting lists were low almost no one went private.  ~the hospital I trained in had a 3 week wait for hip replacements for example – mid eighties

Waiting lists in the NHS are a political decision done deliberately to create a market for private healthcare.  Large numbers of tory MPs and some labour ones are paid by private healthcare – Streeting is one.  they don’t bribe them for no reason ( and bribes they are)

‘Banning individual thought’ comes from the Tory garbled nonsense playbook, hardly ‘individual’.

Two dogs – when private education and healthcare disadvantages others>  actually reduces their chances?

This is called reductio ad absurdum

It was actually sarcasm in response to the rather extreme postings from TJ.

extreme?  WTF was extreme about anything I said?  :-)

Reform UK ahead of the Conservative Party in a YouGov poll for The Times? Ooof.

Two dogs – when private education and healthcare disadvantages others>  actually reduces their chances?

Dunno…tax them more? But you end up down a rabbit hole of “why shouldn’t people who cost the NHS more as a result of their personal choices pay more tax”..smokers, overweight people, mountain bikers etc etc

zomg – thats amazing – I am beginning to think this really could be an extinction level event for the tories.  fandabidozi!

I did have a giggle at some Tory or other stating before that VAT on school fees is going to hit ‘middle income earners’

Yeah, right 😂

We’re celebrating because the even more racist party is more popular? Is that where we’re at now?

Smokers do pay more

There’s VAT on hot pies

also there’s lots of VAT on coffee, T5s    and artisan trousers

The Conservative leaflet came through the letterbox today. Complete with a useful tactical voting guide.

The legal position described in Finland…is exactly the position of schools with charitable status in the UK! If it were as simple as that it would have been fixed already in the UK.

9% of “upper secondary schools” are private in Finland (which is more than the UK, where it is 7%) and they’re all genuinely state-subsidised.

https://eurydice.eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-education-systems/finland/organisation-private-education

Canada has no private healthcare….our politicians need to take charge of this and copy successful countries where these things are not allowed 🙂  No private medicine, no private schools are good for a country .

https://macleans.ca/society/health/private-health-care-canada/

Canadian Medicare provides coverage for approximately 70 percent of Canadians’ healthcare needs, and the remaining 30 percent is paid for through the private sector.[7][8] The 30 percent typically relates to services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, eye care, medical devices, gender care, psychotherapy, physical therapy and dentistry.[7][8] About 65-75 percent of Canadians have some form of supplementary health insurance related to the aforementioned reasons; many receive it through their employers or use secondary social service programs…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada

That may have been due to Brexit – however, I do wonder how [UK voter] volatility compares to other countries.

What did you find when you Googled it?

As far as I can see the scores were falling while Labour were in charge as well.

Oh, well, that’s okay, then. So long as Scotland’s education system has been getting worse under two different parties over 20 years, that’s fine, nothing to worry about, and somehow this makes it untrue that it’s worse than other systems.

Rishi is really determined to be in California by lunchtime on July 5th, isn’t he?

@tj btw your comment earlier about Canada having no private health…..anecdotally (from a mate who had need of it, and two recently retired emergency medicine docs) , their health service is awful, and getting worse exponentially, particularly being hit by qualified docs and nurses heading in droves to the US where they can earn way more.  (Probably why the Canadian health service is advertising here to tempt medics away to fill their gaps)

Yes PCA – so there are no private hospitals in Canada because all hospital type care is done by the state.  Yes some stuff is not covered under medicare – like in most countries but there is no queue jumping by paying to get shorter waits.    there is no private healthcare in the way we have it with private hospitals with no waiting lists.

On Scottish education – it shows its a structural issue not a party one – and guess what – its mainly underfunding.  Decades of cuts thatthe scottish government has no real control over – health and education are the largest parts of the Scottish governments budget and these have undert huge financial pre4ssure as a result of decisions taken in Westmionster

~Twodogs – not what I saw while I was in Canada – their healthcare is excellent putting ours to shame.  I was out in the boondocks tho mainly

Both Mrs FD and my parents were brought up on council estates. Mrs FD was the first person in her family to go to university. Both of us went to our respective state schools. 30 years ago we both had no money at all. We have both worked bloody hard for it, and now we are doing what we can to give our son the best start in life.

The same is true of me and my wife, except we don’t see sending our kids to state schools as disadvantageous.