UK Election!

If you’d lay off the implicit personal insults that you throw around liberally, I’d expect more people would engage you with your input, But y’know; crack on.

There is a really interesting debate to be had on the merits of FPTP vs PR because it’s not a simple question and is very much tied up in tradition and culture.  Up until fairly recently I would have been arguing strongly in favour of FPTP.

However, if you are going to ignore the actual issues and just call everyone else a hypocrite and bonkers because they don’t subscribe to your demonstrably wrong interpretation of PR then you deserve at least a bit of a dig.

And if the voters aren’t happy with the way they figured it out amongst themselves then the party gets severely punished at the next election.

Great so we take power even further away from the electorate. Instead of the voters voting in a party and getting the govt they voted for, they instead vote for negotiators to decide what they get instead, and if they don’t like what those negotiators decide, then they don’t get a chance to get rid of them and vote for some new negotiators for another few years. I’m quite happy with FPTP solely on the grounds of marginalising the likes of Farage, but whichever way I look at PR it’s a shit idea*.

*and yes I understand it just fine thanks even if you think you’re cleverer than me. You don’t have to look far in Europe to see where PR has manifestly failed. Belgium didn’t have a functioning govt for more than a year, The Netherlands not far behind. Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.

Labour have announced another pledge, hold on because this one is super relevant to your life!

Ban the import of foie gras

Hmm. Who eats that stuff anyway? Must be a tiny import market, the french will carry on making it so the ducks aren’t going to be any happier.

How about a change that would make a huge difference to animal welfare in the UK – scrap the exemption for stunning animals at slaughter for religious reasons. Mumbo jumbo from the dark ages shouldn’t override our animal cruelty laws. The majority of sheep in Wales are killed this way. The Welsh Green Party recently dropped their commitment to opposing non stun slaughter. You can figure out why for yourself.

*and yes I understand it just fine thanks even if you think you’re cleverer than me. You don’t have to look far in Europe to see where PR has manifestly failed. Belgium didn’t have a functioning govt for more than a year, The Netherlands not far behind. Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.

When PR ‘fails’ that’s generally a feature rather than a bug.

If it becomes impossible to form a government then that indicates a split in the country that is so severe that finding a solution is simply not possible.

In countries with FPTP the solution is to let a couple of hundred thousand swing voters in a few key swing seats decide the direction of the country.

Literally exactly what happened with the 2019 election and Boris Johnson’s ‘deal’.

Having no government for a year while the debate continued would have been vastly preferable to what happened, no?

However, if you are going to ignore the actual issues and just call everyone else a hypocrite and bonkers

Bruce there’s no need to be so easily offended. You have to admit that being staunchly opposed to Farage whilst at the same time wanting to give him the very thing he wants the most is inconsistent. (and bonkers!) :-)

Bruce there’s no need to be so easily offended.

It’s not really getting offended, just frustrated.

Explaining things to the type of person who cannot imagine what they have not seen gets annoying.  But yes, I should be more patient.

So yes, try looking at the way things work in other countries rather than just seeing everything through the lens of FPTP.  It’ll mean we are all actually talking about the same thing.

 try looking at the way things work in other countries rather than just seeing everything through the lens of FPTP

We don’t need to look at other countries. We have plenty of PR and non-FPTP voting in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and London, and we used to have it everywhere for the European Parliamentary elections (which was how Farage got elected in the first place).

I can imagine the one thing most of us would be able to agree on is that there is no single, perfect electoral system for a democracy. We all know the limitations of FPTP but at least we understand it and we have enough experience of it that it sort of makes some logical sense. It’s easy to find its faults when we look at the actual voting numbers but that in itself is not really telling the complete picture as those numbers don’t take account of where those people are. There is possibly some room for PR – but what flavour of PR do you want? Whichever one you go for you will find some proportion of the electorate that will dislike it.  I also wish our ballot papers had an explicit “none of the above” or “exercising my right not to vote for any of the proposed candidates” so that we had a positive outlet for those that are exasperated with the current political system. That could help motivate those who feel that way and end up not being bothered to go and vote as they would only be spoiling their ballot paper. And save those who do go and spoil their papers by giving them a positive option with which to express their sentiment.

This is going to be a tricky election as I feel quite conflicted. I genuinely don’t know who to vote for. None of the parties are particularly geared up to bring the transformational changes and improvements that we need as those are probably not catchy enough sound bites to motivate voters. For starters I think we need a complete overhaul of the taxation system, the NHS, social services and how local government is funded and supported. These alone are massive programmes that will take years to define, plan and implement. That’s before we start talking about infrastructure, energy, housing, employment and immigration. And those are just the big ticket items. As a nation we could and should be doing so much better and we deserve / need so much more than the large number of muppets we are currently burdened with in parliament. It feels too tribal and it needs a more constructive and collaborative approach. Someone needs to let some grown ups in!

No Dazh =- you clearly do NOT understand PR.  thats obvious from your posts

Great so we take power even further away from the electorate. Instead of the voters voting in a party and getting the govt they voted for,

But under FPTP (which forces all parties to have an opinion on everything) you end up holding your nose and voting for the party that least worst represents you.

The current system just gives you 2 options and assumes that if you care about (in a positive way) the environment, minority rights, equality, or a myriad of other issues  then you must also be left of center.  Which is bonkers.

It’s why Labour is split on Gaza.  Because it’s scared of losing both sides traditionally support labour.

Once past the Green stuff the Green Party’s manifesto is pretty wild.

It means there’s a lot of people who might be economically conservative but socially liberal who have no one to vote for.

I’d rather vote for a left of center, socially liberal green candidate and get a seat at the negotiating table.  Than vote Lib Dem as the least-worst non-Tory option in the vain hope that the election bucks a 100+ year local winning streak for the Tories. And if he* did get in, will achieve pretty much zilch because he won’t have a seat at the table anyway even if “my” party wins because I’ve voted for someone I didn’t actually support?

*not sexist, it’s a he.

Explaining things to the type of person who cannot imagine what they have not seen gets annoying.

Funny you think I can’t imaging what PR is like. I spend half my time on here day dreaming of a world with no borders or goverments at all, and economies which provide for everyone’s basic needs so PR isn’t really much of a stretch :-)

Neither am I ignorant of the way things work in other countries. I’ll admit I don’t follow the politics of EU countries as close as I do here but it’s really not difficult to see where PR fails just as it’s easy to see where FPTP is deficient. The one thing FPTP is very good at though in comparison to PR is keeping fascists and demogogues away from power, and given what’s going on in the world right now with Trump, Putin, Modi et al that’s got to be priority number one for any country which prizes personal freedom, democracy and economic security.

Trump was elected under FPTP, based on a minority share of the popular vote.

Anyway… anything related to the election campaigns to share?

India also uses FPTP

You reckon when Badenoch sweeps into power in 5 years time with 100+ majority the government’s not going to have a strong whiff of fascist about it?

You’re more of an optimist than I thought.

Keeping Demagogues from power? Like Boris?

Belgium didn’t have a functioning govt for more than a year

That has nothing to do with PR but with its general political structure in particular the North/South divide and the fact it has extremely strong federal structures which means it could manage quite happily without a central government for a time. I wouldnt be completely surprised if it did break into two (maybe three) countries at some point.

Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.

You think they wouldnt have had the same under FPTP? Curious.

Also Austria and Italys right wing governments were no more right wing populist than our Tories

You think they wouldnt have had the same under FPTP? Curious.

FPTP would be worse because it comes mandated.

at least we understand it and we have enough experience of it that it sort of makes some logical sense

No it doesn’t.  Have you been reading the thread? We’ve got people forced to vote for people they don’t like to get rid of people they like less. And the parties that have the policies people like don’t get votes. How does that make sense at all?  Reform are polling at 12% of the vote and 0% of the seats; the Tories could get between 50 and 150 seats based on a small variation in percentage points.

PR means more parties, better representation and more compromises leading to a more moderate outcome.  Large numbers of people in the UK care about green policies but they don’t vote green because they won’t win in their constituency. This is of course self fulfilling, but then there are other questions – you may not be in favour of disarmament. In a PR system far more people would vote Green, especially if it were an alternative vote/second choice system, then they’d be a significant chunk of political power. By which I mean parties seeking to form coalitions would need them so they would be able to get green policies on the agenda FAR more effectively than they do now; but also parties would start to court their voters with green policies of their own.

Fascinating though this hypothetical chat about worldwide electoral systems is, back in the UK with its FPTP system and the general election in a few weeks…

Naga Muchetty has just interviewed whichever Tory nonentity is presently immigration minister about their hastily assembled visa cap they felt the need to announce, purely coincidentally,  a number of hours after Nige turned up

Pretty much all their policy announcements so far have been proper back-of-a-fag-packet nonsense, which don’t stand up to even cursory analysis, but they’ve not even bothered doing that this time

Theyve basically copied and pasted their ‘new’ immigration policy straight off the Reform website

Who was it who was arguing that Farage isn’t as influential as he thinks?

His reappearance has just had the Tories re-write their entire immigration policy overnight, parroting word-for-word what the man-frog said yesterday

He’s already Tory party leader in all but name as he’s already setting their agenda. They’re absolutely terrified of him!

inevitably

Tories going in for Inheritance tax

**EXCLUSIVE**

Rishi Sunak should make a manifesto pledge to abolish inheritance tax, senior Conservative MPs have saidhttps://t.co/OnU1PKu013

— Dominic Penna (@DominicPenna) June 4, 2024

rolling average going the wrong way for the dreadful little man

Labour’s average poll lead over the Tories widened to 22.3 points on Tuesday, up from 21.5 points on Monday

Latest @BloombergUK composite via @AlexJFMorales >>https://t.co/pvgXo9NJTg pic.twitter.com/RjUMFNuY5y

— Alex Wickham (@alexwickham) June 4, 2024

I’m guessing that with FPTP Vs PR, I think I’m probably not far off the mark by saying neither is a silver bullet and both have pros and cons.

I think that’s probably what a lot of others think too?

So to use a phrase I’ve used a fair bit on here lately, “it’s complex.” 😉

Btw, not having a dig at anytime, the discussion had made me realise I don’t know anywhere near enough about our voting system or viable alternatives. It’s actually been interesting.👍

Trump was elected under FPTP, based on a minority share of the popular vote.

Yup the US electoral college is a particularly stupid implemention of FPTP. We’re in the UK though, and so far our system has been very good at keeping tinpot fascists* away from power. It’s evident from the polls and Farage’s comments yesterday that Reform think they are in a position to replace the tories as the right wing opposition to labour. Right now the only thing preventing that is that thet won’t win enough (or even any) seats in parliament to get them anywhere near that.

*No this doesn’t include Johnson.

PR means more parties, better representation

You clearly have more faith and confidence in politicians than I do. Think I’m probably in the majority who think politicians should have less power not more. Giving them more influence on what sort of govt we have will not result in better representation.

I do not see any real downsides to the system used in Scotland.  We get a representative government, every voters vote counts at least on the list vote.  MSPs are still constituency based.   The effective threshold is a bit high IMO but that is arguable.

If westminster was elected on the same basis we would not have had the tory majority governments or indeed any tory governments more than likely and we would still be in the EU.

people however do not vote in the same way as they do under fptp.

Think I’m probably in the majority who think politicians should have less power not more.

What’s the alternative to elected politicans having power?  Corporations? Rich individuals?

FPTP may well keep fascists out in the short run but with the Tories drifting towards Reform it almost becomes a fait accompli (and sadly Labour drifting right too. Even Rory Stewart says they’re becoming indistinguishable.)

What’s the alternative to elected politicans having power?

The people having it instead.

All the talk of PR vs FPTP misses the central point, which is that representative politics is the problem. We’re all arguing about the mechanism by which we give a small number of people the power to decide things for us rather than questioning whether they should have that power at all or how we hold them to account if they misuse it.

which is that representative politics is the problem. We’re all arguing about the mechanism by which we give a small number of people the power to decide things for us rather than questioning whether they should have that power at all or how we hold them to account if they misuse it.

What alternative to that is there, besides the public having a referendum on every single decision a government would usually make? The answer is citizens assemblies, whereby a random pool of 200 or so people can send decisions back to the commons for a blind vote (so MPs can vote against their party without fear).

Rory Stewart (again) keeps banging on about that idea and I think it would be great.

representative politics is the problem

So you think we shouldn’t have elections.

Perhaps it’s time for a “UK Election?” thread…

All the talk of PR vs FPTP misses the central point,

UKIP Reform shows that FPTP can get minority views front and centre.  Shown by the fact the Tories just copy and pasted their material.

Unfortunately progressive and liberals seem to have some sort of obsession with pragmatism and ‘making my vote count’ whilst completely missing the fact that the people who are just unreasonable and not scared to waste their votes are the ones who are getting everything they want.

The main problem with FPTP at the moment is that only one side is using it to their advantage.

So you think we shouldn’t have elections.

Of course we would, we’d be voting on what we think legislative bodies should do rather than who should be given the power to decide it for us.  It’s not exactly a new thing, trade unions have been operating under this model for decades.

rolling average going the wrong way for the dreadful little man

This was before frogfaces u-turn, tonights leadership debate was going to be make or break for Sunak, is he even going to bother now? Is frogface in the debate?

Is frogface in the debate?

Does he even need to be? He’s on every sodding Question Time, he’s on Radio4… Annoyingly, when left to his own devices, he’s actually a decent public speaker. He falls apart pretty quickly though when someone with any knowledge challenges him.

Meanwhile, the Greens (who, unlike Reform, actually have some MPs) get no airtime at all.

The people having it instead.

Haaaahahaha!  Have you ever met people?

how we hold them to account if they misuse it

That’s exactly what we were discussing.

Re that poll trend graph up there – the last few mm makes it look like Labour are getting votes from Reform.

The people having it instead.

But only the right type of people eh?

I do not see any real downsides to the system used in Scotland.

Going back to the point about FPTP being good at keeping fascists and demagogues away from power: Russia’s parliamentary electoral system is 90% the same as Scotland’s ie regional reps + party list. The two systems produce wildly different outcomes. I don’t think the choice of system is as important as people are making it out to be.

I don’t think it’s fair to describe Presidential elections (in the US or Russia) as being FPTP. There’s only one position up for grabs, you couldn’t really have a PR system for it.

STV is a type of PR and works well enough for such elections.

There’s only one position up for grabs, you couldn’t really have a PR system for it.

Of course its FPTP – large constituencies ie strates.  Win a state by 1 vote, get all thats states votes in the electoral college.  thats how trum,p won will less votes than clinton

STV is a type of PR and works well enough for such elections.

I do see what you’re saying – but isn’t that more a system for ensuring that the candidate that has a plurality minority vote at first round isn’t elected (e.g. I have 21% and 4 other candidates have 19.75%)?

You can’t proportionally allocate the votes of a Presidential election – ultimately 100% of the (single) seat up for grabs is going to be allocated to one candidate who will never have 100% of the vote (except North Korea).