UK Election!

To be honest I don’t think anything could now derail Labour’s general election campaign

Well by derail I suppose I mean it’s looking more like an actual campaign rather than a victory procession. I don’t think Labour will fail to win a majority, but if Starmer carries on like this that will be shrinking by the week. We could be looking at something like a 2017 scenario where the tories do much better than expected but not quite enough to stop a labour govt. That would be very funny as Sunak might have to hang on as leader and cancel his Californian getaway while Starmer would be a lame duck PM with a furious party wondering how he nearly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

They’ve had a couple of good eggs over the years, Kate Hoey (I voted for her), and … erm…

Thanks for the laugh!

Anyway, come on Britain… why are we thinking small scale? Let’s not just get the Tories out of government… let’s get them off the front benches. The LibDems as the official opposition is entirely doable as long as voters use the voting system in front of them, and don’t fall into a “my vote isn’t needed” mentality. Get everyone out. Make your vote count against the Tories by voting for whoever can send them home defeated in your seat in a few weeks’ time.

I’d be surprised if there weren’t shifts in attitude even amongst the boomers.

I would like to see the 70+ age bracket broken down a little. I’m 70 (so a boomer) and most of my friends are around that age. I know very few who are Tory supporters. OK the reflects the circles I move in but I think it’s actually an older set of the 70+ range (our parents) where most of the Tory support lies. As they die out I think tory support will decline further amongst the elderly – not least because the next generation of OAPs may well not be as well off as the current ones. Yes I include myself as “current” and “well off”, whilst not exactly rolling in it my house is paid off and I have a reasonable pension pot. I think before long parameters other than age may become stronger indicators of voting patterns.

the little fella is heading to the ‘Red Wall’ today with some loose change he found down the back of the sofa…

I shall be interested to see how well that goes down.

In total that’s less than 2 months worth of UK road deaths.

And also 0.1% of the 232,000 covid deaths which were way worse than they needed to be due to the incompetence of the Conservative gov’t prior to the pandemic. I very much doubt if Labour had stayed in office they wouldn’t have prioritised the NHS.

I couldn’t be more anti-Labour Party…
They’ve had a couple of good eggs over the years, Kate Hoey (I voted for her)

You’re right, you couldn’t be more anti-Labour Party.

[Blair] lent his poison voice to remain thus facilitating Brexit

You can say a lot about Blair but blaming him for Brexit because he supported remain (which must have been a pretty marginal contribution to the debate because I don’t even remember it) is silly.

They’ve had a couple of good eggs over the years, Kate Hoey (I voted for her)

Hoey is not a good egg. She’s gone from being an advocate of Irish nationalist terrorism to an apologist for chauvinist unionism. Each of those positions is reprehensible – going from one to the other is nuts! She’s also a Brexiteer and anti-immigration.

In the 97 manifesto [Blair] promised not to introduce tuition fees but did so immediately after the election.

This is simply factually wrong. Labour promised to implement the Dearing Committee’s recommendations. Everyone at the time knew this meant tuition fees in some form. You can read the manifesto here – look at the “Higher Education” section. It does not say what you remember it as saying.

http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1997/1997-labour-manifesto.shtml

John Smith apparently had a few skeletons in his closet that never got revealed due to his untimely death.  My father was well aware of them, as were a lot of the political commentators of the time, but he didn’t detail them to me. Something to do with goings on in Monklands.  But who in politics doesn’t?

Personally I liked JS and he would have balanced Blair and Brown nicely.

Moving on.

It’s generally good to see some positive stuff though as we’re surely short of good positive ideas these days.

Get the infrastructure spend moving, and in the right place. Rail to tie southern Scotland and northern England together – cement the union and give the country a second economic block similar in size to London. Roads less so going forwards.
Build routes to the rest of Europe that are less dependent on the Southeast. Trains to Paris for both passengers and freight that don’t require a change in / near London.
Use energy for social-engineering. The transmission tariff mainly encourages generation to be near use. Change it to encourage use to be near generation. As industry decarbonises that will encourage jobs and industry to the areas that need “levelling up” (Sorry for using that phrase)

Let’s see some honesty about tertiary education. My parents were bright working class kids – so the state funded them all the way to PhD, because we want the best and the brightest in this country. I have no problem starting with today’s tertiary sector funding model, but layer grants and scholarships over the top on it as a minimum.

Minimum wage and in work benefits – why should we find Tesco’s profits via in work benefits because they don’t pay folk properly? If folk qualify for in work benefits, fine, but charge them back to the employer.

Let’s get a sensible immigration policy – acquiring the best and the brightest from abroad but not the rest of the workforce means indigenous Brits will be disadvantaged in the jobs market because (to massively simplify) given the choice of promoting a Brit that you can’t replace or bringing someone in at a higher level from elsewhere there will a ever so slight bias in favour of bring someone in. Immigration is good but it needs mirror not to distort the jobs market.

PS – unashamedly centre left type here, happy to listen to both right and left of me and look for pragmatic solutions preferably without unforeseen consequences (though they’re not always easy to foresee) that benefit people. People not organisations and not ideologies.

Moving on.

You’re asking a lot.

why should we find Tesco’s profits via in work benefits because they don’t pay folk properly?

You’ve got that the wrong way around, paying the workers more will just put prices which will in turn affect everyone, it’ll also speed up automation of Jobs and reduce headcount. What we need to do is get the cost of living down so people on a Tesco wage can actually afford to live on it. Jacking up the cost of food won’t help them or anyone else.

The government needs to massively invest in 2 keys areas as well introduce some controls, housing and energy. Both achievable at a national level, gets those costs down to where they should be and suddenly a Tesco wage looks ok.

The alternative is probably ultimately online shopping picked and delivered by robots from an unlit warehouse, not an ideal future on many levels.

They’ve had a couple of good eggs over the years, Kate Hoey (I voted for her)

The female Farage? I’ve always been mystified as to why she was ever in the Labour Party

Anyway, it looks like this thread has become ‘that’ thread with the same 5 tedious lefties wanging on about Tony Blair

You really will never forgive him for winning 3 general elections, will you? 😂

You’ve got that the wrong way around, paying the workers more will just put prices which will in turn affect everyone, it’ll also speed up automation of Jobs and reduce headcount. What we need to do is get the cost of living down so people on a Tesco wage can actually afford to live on it. Jacking up the cost of food won’t help them or anyone else.

Still feel I’m paying Tesco’s wage bill whether I shop there or not.  Less so at Aldi (as I understand it, and the point works whether or not it’s technically correct) where the base wage is a touch higher.

As for getting cost of living down, that’s just inflation rebalancing the system. Getting CoL down means deflation or wage rises.
And to be fair inflation is normally (though this time perhaps not entirely) the rebalancing of government spending / money creation. Inflation and wage rises are a way of devaluing debt – not great if you’re part of the lending / investing class.

paying the workers more will just put prices which will in turn affect everyone, it’ll also speed up automation of Jobs and reduce headcount.

Well, we have a skills shortage and the lowest unemployment in 40 years and an aging population and massive demand for carers and large scale immigration and a housing crisis, so why are taxpayers subsidising Tesco to keep these low productivity jobs that apparently could be done by robots anyway?

I’m holding off calling for fully automated luxury communism but I don’t entirely understand why having a human pack and deliver my groceries is important in itself.

Smith apparently had a few skeletons in his closet…But who in politics doesn’t?

To be fair to them, you could never suggest that Hoey or Corbyn or Abbot or Patel or Rees-Mogg do. Their skeletons are all out in the middle of the street dancing in a conga line accompanied by a mariachi band.

You really will never forgive him for winning 3 general elections, will you? 😂

Will you ever forgive Corbyn for losing 2?

You’ve got that the wrong way around, paying the workers more will just put prices which will in turn affect everyone, it’ll also speed up automation of Jobs and reduce headcount.

I’ve never understood the logic of keeping people employed for employments sake.  If a job can be automated it should be automated (with the assumption that the robot can do the job as well as or better than the human).

If keeping jobs in the hands of humans is a sign of a successful economy then couldn’t we just ban certain machinery from farms and get everyone back out in the fields planting and gathering crops?

You really will never forgive him for winning 3 general elections, will you?

Well every day is a school day – I thought you were not a fan of Tony Blair?

Although I guess the truth is that you probably just changed your mind. I remember when you were Corbyn supporter. And I dare say that at some point you will starting hating Starmer.

With you it’s all love or hate, there is no in-between. Which is why you assume that if anyone doesn’t hate Corbyn they must love him and hero worship him.

Will you ever forgive Corbyn for losing 2?

It’s the idea that winning and losing elections are politically and morally equivalent that’s so frustrating. Elections aren’t just debating competitions – winning an election is a chance to preserve lives and the planet. Losing an election is squandering that chance and failing.  Unlike for Blair (Iraq War vs Sure Start), there’s no argument to be had about the legacy of the Corbyn government (or the Miliband government, or the Kinnock government) because there wasn’t one.

But this is a niche concern for cranks now – like people who hate decimal currency, or think that that much protein creates lost, or want to reinstate the Tudors as the Royal Family.

Well every day is a school day – I thought you were not a fan of Tony Blair?

I’m pretty much ‘Centrist Dad’

You don’t have to be a ‘fan’ of Blair and Brown to be able to appreciate the good they did without screaming IRAQ! like the woman on Tom and Jerry when she sees a mouse.

If some people can’t acknowledge the huge increase in funding for the NHS, education and Sure Start and so much more, and say that it’s no different from the Tories then there’s really not much point engaging with them as they’re either being wilfully ignorant or they’re just morons. Quite possibly both.

As for Magic Grandad, I was willing to believe that after the disaster of Ed Milliband (delivered by Len McClusky and Co, lest we forget), he could move Labour to the left, but moderate his position on some things and deliver something decent

You know how long that misplaced optimism lasted for? About a week. I made the error of going to a Momentum meeting and it rapidly dawned on me that Corbyn and his supporters were all absolutely hatstand. Completely mental!

I’m not making this up… they spent half an hour discussing what they were going to do to prevent Jeremy being assassinated by the ‘The State’ to prevent the bright socialist future, then they started going on about Venezuela

Since then I’ve absolutely despised their tinfoil-helmeted, 6th form level, ****, placard-waving, middle-class, self-indulgence that was never going to deliver anything but permanent opposition. Not that anyone seemed to be too bothered by that.

Anyway.. FFS Lets get back on topic.

This  thread is meant to be about this election campaign, though I know you lot love rattling on about 2017 when your bearded superhero didn’t lose as badly as expected, so apparently that represented some kind of victory

It didn’t, but this one might. Though I suspect the usual suspects would rather see Starmer lose so they could carry on whining about Blairites/centrists/whatever and carry on dreaming of the socialist utopia and Weimar Republic monetary policy that is never ever ever going to happen

That’s a big long spiel on a subject that you don’t want to talk about binners! 😊

And on the contrary, I am very happy to talk about the present. I find it’s you who generally wants to bring up Magic Grandad, as you amusingly call him.

Earlier in the thread you started to become hysterical because people wanted to discuss the crisis facing Labour’s current election campaign.

And on the contrary, I am very happy to talk about the present. I find it’s you who generally wants to bring up Magic Grandad, as you amusingly call him.

Nothing says “let’s move on” clearer than that.

Anyway back on topic I might not be a political fan of John Rentoul but I reckon this must be the most insightful article I have read so far during this election campaign, at least with regards to Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/angela-rayner-keir-starmer-diane-abbott-b2554990.html

Starmer contracting out his beliefs to Morgan McSweeney is not a new perspective for me but I was interested in Rentoul’s observations of how deliberate and calculating Angela Rayner’s manoeuvers were after she correctly read the situation surrounding the crises.

I can see a situation where in a few months time, when Starmer’s already low level of popularity totally collapses under the pressure of premiership, where Angela Rayner stages a coup.

The Tories might be on to something if they use the line “vote for Starmer get Rayner”.

I tried “move on” earlier. It didn’t work.

What do folk want from the next administration whomever they might be?

What interesting campaigning has gone on, slips, trips and political falls have you seen, did you spot a poll or a story that smack of a change in the wind?

That’s what I want to hear.

(And don’t let any 50 something, centre left types with deceased psephologist fathers prattle on about John Smith)

Nothing says “let’s move on” clearer than that.

I’m glad you agree!

@ernielynch

Nice spot on the red queen article. I’d be surprised if she goes for it as you suggest that early, but get a decent ministerial role (not deputy leader), be seen to make a difference for a few folk and she does look good longer term.
I’d love an argument with her. I suspect she’d run rings round me without breaking sweat, but just to see that mind at work.

PS – I doubt that Starmer’s popularity will be that low if he returns a good majority – not in the short term.

kelvin

Let’s not just get the Tories out of government… let’s get them off the front benches. The LibDems as the official opposition is entirely doable as long as voters use the voting system in front of them

That’s a situation I would love to see happen and not just because it would be so humiliating for the Tories.

A well functioning opposition is almost as important as a well functioning government to me.

Both sides should be advocating for a better society even if they disagree on the way to do it.

A bit like this thread in fact, epic arguments sure, but they are almost exclusively about how to make the UK a better place for all it’s citizens not a worse one. That’s how it should be both on here and in government. 👍

 I suspect she’d run rings round me without breaking sweat, but just to see that mind at work.

I have heard Angela Rayner speak a couple of times, both in front of a very large crowd and a small group. She is very good indeed, speaks without any sort of hesitation and without looking at notes, and with easily expressed passion. She knows how to play a crowd.

One of things I like about Rayner is that she won’t shy away from speaking to a left-wing audience, something Starmer would not dream of doing, despite the inevitable heckles and criticism she receives.

As far as how long I expect Starmer to remain Labour leader I don’t know. But I have little doubt that he will cease to be leader at some point between July 4th and the 2029 general election.

Magic Grandad

Life of Brian meme, we need a Life of Brian meme !!

“vote for Starmer get Rayner”

At last – a reason to vote Labour !!

What do folk want from the next administration whomever they might be?

Fully automated luxury social democracy. The end of right to buy on social housing. A restriction on non-residents buying residential property outside designated investment zones. Total legalisation and taxation of cannabis. Decriminalisation of mere drug possession on the Portuguese model. Massive pressure on UK overseas territories to speed up transparency of ownership of offshore companies. An end to Scottish Partnerships. Termination of outsourcing of immigration functions to Sopra Steria. Termination of outsourcing of army recruitment to Crapita. A pathway to economic reintegration will the European Union. Reduction in the number of flaky tertiary education colleges offering dodgy courses for visa support. Cap on the number of foreign students at top tier universities. Long term plan to increase real foreign language learning in primary schools. Prohibition on flights between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh/Newcastle (maybe exception for much smaller number of flights for pax connecting to international destinations). A prohibition on outside employment of MPs (maybe exception for legitimate public service professions in which they were already working prior to Parliament eg medicine, public interest law, education). Restated media regulation. A monument to Diane Abbot in every town square. A comprehensive restatement of foreign policy that picks a limited number of issues and goes deep into them. A reinstatement of the fuel duty escalator. A shift in HMRC resources to high value tax evaders. De-recognition of the Royal Family, full transfer of the Crown Estate to the state, and creation of a Presidential position on the Irish model, to rotate among the 4 nations every decade.

But in the first term I’ll settle for the Tories out.

Rishi’s listening. He’ll try to deliver at least one of those demands.

Rishi’s listening. He’ll try to deliver at least one of those demands.

LOL! Nice one! 😁

Tories have claimed they’ve had a good week :?

? Our latest polling with @ObserverUK

The Labour lead is now 20 points.
• Labour 45% (+4)
• Conservatives 25% (-2)
• Lib Dems 8% (-2)
• SNP 3% (+1)
• Greens 6% (-1)
• Reform 11% (+1)

Fieldwork: 29 – 31 May.
Changes from 23 – 24 May. pic.twitter.com/bFYbrJzYTR

— Opinium (@OpiniumResearch) June 1, 2024

George Galloway says the Workers Party is standing hundreds of candidates. He says he is expecting hundreds of thousands of votes and will be extremely disappointed if the number elected is not in double figures.

Well, he shoots high does George.

Tories have claimed they’ve had a good week 😕

They’ve been claiming that the last 14 years have been a triumph so a week of falling polls is neither here nor there for them!

George Galloway says the Workers Party is standing hundreds of candidates

He’ll be more than familiar with the words ‘lost deposit’ by the morning of July 5th then

Why can’t George Galloway be the Nigel Farage of the left? He’s seeing deep into a few niches (the 6th form left, Muslims, anti-wokeists) and there’s an assumption that Labour is going to walk into power so there’s no jeopardy in not voting for them. Plus unlike Farage he is a grafting campaigner and has been elected as an MP before. I suspect he has more access to campaign finance than you might expect… The danger that he scoops up seats is real.

He’s just a narcissistic grifter, exactly like Farage

Heard a peep out of him since he was elected as MP for Rochdale? I doubt his constituents in Rochdale have either

It’s worth noting that Opinium use a methodology that favour the Tories by squeezing  the Don’t Knows & weight based on who people voted for previously

Considering the methodology & that this is well after the start of the campaign, seeing this poll widen, will be setting off major alarm bells in the Tory party, be very interesting to see how Sunak & the rest of his party react

I see a story that the Tories are warning members that the campaign is short of money with a claim that they might start triaging constituencies within 48 hours.

Liz Truss has made the papers again too, pronouncing Tony Blair the worse UK PM. 🥬