UK Election!

Generational wealth is not speculation.  It’s something that can and does get measured.

I don’t doubt.

And the measurements reveal that millennials are behind when compared to boomers at the same age.

Ah – those sweeping generalisations again.

And voting in your own interests is not something that is limited to a particular generation.  Sure, some people are going to be more or less altruistic but on average there is always a slight preference for parties that are going to advance your own personal wealth.

I don’t think many are voting to protect their wealth – I think the majority have been sold a bunch of lies about a new period of British Empire and manufactured fear about refugees, immigrants, knife crime, leftie lawyers, the woke and Muslims.

Ah – those sweeping generalisations again.

Also known as data.

I don’t think many are voting to protect their wealth – I think the majority have been sold a bunch of lies about a new period of British Empire and manufactured fear about refugees, immigrants, knife crime, leftie lawyers, the woke and Muslims.

This is the crux of the matter.

There is little debate on economics and distribution of wealth because in reality there is little difference between Labour and the Tories on these points.  That’s why everything you mentioned is front and centre.

In total that’s less than 2 months worth of UK road deaths. I feel sorry for those we invaded but life here for the vast majority was much better……

Yeah the hundreds of thousands who died as the result of the decision to go to war were mostly foreigners.

Which of course was always going to be the case otherwise Blair would never have agreed to go to war. He obviously never believed for a moment that weapons of “mass” destruction existed, so he could be sure that thousands of Brits would not die.

I feel “sorry” for all those foreigners who died too. I think this is when thoughts and prayers are important.

He may have made things a bit better for certain sections of society, but the party was going to happen whether he was there or not.

That’s totally inaccurate. There were deliberate policies by Blair and Brown to bring down poverty and child poverty. The poorest in our society were targeted to improve their lot.

We’ve had increasing inequity in our society since 2010, more children in poverty, more children in destitution, less access to services.

Surestart and the minimum wage were progressive policies that genuinely improved our country. When certain commentators in here bang on about them being red Tories; the Tories would never have done surestart and got rid of it as fast as they could in austerity

@BruceWee, I’m 55. I’m relatively rich, I know that. And that’s before any inheritances. Not sure how it really affects the argument. Which is that 14 years of tory austerity and spiteful vandalism has basically wrecked the economy, based on a toxic combination of economic zealotry and isolationist jingoism.

I’m old enough to remember black wednesday, and for all the harm that did (very real tangible harm to many real people) the economy as a whole recovered and people as a whole got richer.

Also putting aside the financial mechanism (PFI); the new labour government invested in new hospitals and schools (building schools for the future).

PFI was a bad execution of a good intention, which again we would not have seen with a continuation of the Tories.

They also put money into improving homes, and there were some massive schemes being developed that were killed by austerity

There were deliberate policies by Blair and Brown to bring down poverty and child poverty.

Well using government money to subsidise greedy money-grabbing profit-chasing  employers who won’t pay a decent living wage is one way to do it I guess.

Just as well that there is a generous money tree after all, eh?

PFI was a bad execution of a good intention, which again we would not have seen with a continuation of the Tories.

PFI was a Tory government initiative which New Labour grabbed and ran with.

Also known as data.

No, that’s not data – it’s a sweeping generalisation.

That’s why everything you mentioned is front and centre.

Everything I mentioned is front and centre because for almost all of the last 14 years, that’s what the government has been selling. So I think that saying…

The dis-proportionally wealthy are going to vote to keep their wealth while the dis-proportionally poor are going to vote to redistribute that wealth.

… is a nonsense. I don’t think many Tory voters do so to keep their wealth, I think they do it because they’re ultimately worried about being knifed by an illegal immigrant who’ll be got off the charges by a woke lefty lawyer.

That’s totally inaccurate. There were deliberate policies by Blair and Brown to bring down poverty and child poverty. The poorest in our society were targeted to improve their lot.

Child poverty also decreased in the US over the same period.  My point is no government can eliminate the effects of the global economy.  All it can do is mitigate them (or make them worse).

That’s why saying, ‘Things seemed so much better under Blair’ is not really helpful.  Of course things were better under Blair.  Even the Tories would have struggled to **** things up completely the same period.

Anyway back to 2024 :

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tories-heading-for-election-wipeout-as-new-poll-predicts-they-could-end-up-with-just-66-seats_uk_665a9e5fe4b0b6cf3f483e2d

 

“The Conservatives would have fewer than 100 seats. They would be the official opposition, but they would have less than half of the opposition MPs – 72 out of 157.”

The Tories would be a minority within the opposition, how humiliating! 🤣😂

I’m old enough to remember black wednesday, and for all the harm that did (very real tangible harm to many real people) the economy as a whole recovered and people as a whole got richer.

For people of your generation.

People of my generation are only now getting on the housing market, starting a pension, etc

You said the financial crisis was all over by 2010.  Sorry, but for people under the age of 40 that’s complete and utter bollocks.  But I appreciate that for people who are around 55 it’s true.

No, that’s not data – it’s a sweeping generalisation.

No, if you count up all the money and then put the numbers in a spreadsheet then it’s data.  Which is what they did.  Sorry if you don’t like the numbers.

Everything I mentioned is front and centre because for almost all of the last 14 years, that’s what the government has been selling.

Yes, because if Labour and the Tories fundamentally agree on the economic questions then what else is there?

I don’t think many Tory voters do so to keep their wealth,

The reason wealthy people have no reason to fear anyone coming for their stuff is no party is willing to even talk about doing it.  They are free to spend their time worrying about brown people and the wokerati instead.

What has been going on since 2010 isn’t the financial crisis of 2008! It’s the Tory crisis! I’m well aware that the economy has tanked for many people since then. My own business was wiped out by brexit. I would be even richer if it hadn’t been. Instead, I’m retired, economically inactive, barely paying a penny in tax. My business paid a few tens of thousands while it was running. That’s just one example of the real tangible harm done by the tories for purely ideological reasons and nothing at all to do with the global financial crisis of 2008.

It’s the Tory crisis!

How are the Tories affecting US politics, the European economy, etc?

Don’t get me wrong, I think the Tories made a bad situation much much worse but I think blaming them for all the ills of the Western world is a bit much.

It’s almost as if both parties subscribe to the idea that the private sector creates wealth without the state.

Doesn’t matter let it fail. Results will be obvious eventually. Labour will then have to do something that needs a larger  deficit. Be ready for that one.

Streeting got a good kicking on QT. And Farage on there… My god.

Apparently a *shocker* of a poll coming tonight from the Observer (bigging up their own poll no doubt.)

And d:ream banned Labour from using their song!  🤣

Quite looking forward to the debates. I don’t think either will come out looking good. But Sunak for sure is rubbish at front of house stuff.

I’m not blaming the tories for all of the ills in the western world. I’m blaming them for quite deliberately making things worse.

That’s just one example of the real tangible harm done by the tories for purely ideological reasons and nothing at all to do with the global financial crisis of 2008.

It’s worth noting that the present polling not only has a substantial general lead for Labour, but they’ve been consistently ahead on economic competence. It’s one area where they’re winning, hands down. And rightly so.

If anyone was in any doubt the damage the Tories have inflicted on the economy with Brexit, austerity and other purely ideological nonsense* then Mad Lizzies insane mini-budget certainly put paid to that

*Brexit has cost the company I’m presently working for tens of millions of pounds in additional costs. When the mountains of paperwork and added costs materialised after Johnson’s ‘oven-ready’ deal, they hemorrhaged the EU business they’d built over decades and had no option but to open 2 offices and a warehousing operation within the EU, laying UK staff off. Well done for ‘Taking Back Control’ 🙄

No, if you count up all the money and then put the numbers in a spreadsheet then it’s data.  Which is what they did.  Sorry if you don’t like the numbers.

Numbers are numbers, my opinions of them are of no relevance. However…

And the measurements reveal that millennials are behind when compared to boomers at the same age.

… is a sweeping generalisation.

The reason wealthy people have no reason to fear anyone coming for their stuff is no party is willing to even talk about doing it.  They are free to spend their time worrying about brown people and the wokerati instead.

You weren’t talking about wealthy people, you were talking about most boomers and gen X.

they’ve been consistently ahead on economic competence. It’s one area where they’re winning, hands down. And rightly so.

IME people’s perception of “economic competence” is not good. Which imo is why the Tories are so successful in winning general elections and creating myths surrounding the economy.

Edit: According to the latest figures from YouGov Labour lead the Tories over the economy by 7%. I am not sure I would describe that as winning hands down.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/which-political-party-would-be-the-best-at-handling-the-economy

IME people’s perception of “economic competence” is not good. Which imo is why the Tories are so successful in winning general elections and creating myths surrounding the economy.

Totally.

There has been this myth perpetuated for years about the Tories with the economy – and all that was taking place was a transfer of state created wealth through to the finance sector giving the illusion of success.

You can only keep selling stuff off for so long until it catches up with you.

eBay economy.

However Labour didn’t help themselves at the last election by not defending themselves against the GFC and claiming they’d ran out of money. That was ridiculous. And although a joke it got picked up by lots of journos.

you were talking about most boomers and gen X.

‘Statistically more likely’ and ‘most’ are not the same thing.

My point exactly.

So Sunak today trying taking full advantage of the Diane Abbott fiasco. Vote Starmer, get Rayner and the hard labour left. Fine by me. 😀

I really don’t know what the hard left actually is these days. More like the soft left.

Can you really look at the Zack Polanski and call him hard left. 🤣 Hanging out with dogs and trees.

I see we agree on much about Blair, Ernie.

In the 97 manifesto he promised not to introduce tuition fees but did so immediately after the election. Student debt has become a problem both for the students in debt and the economy as a whole as much of it will have to be written off one day.

I lived the economic “boom” of the Blair period in France. It had very little to do with Blair’s policies if it was a boom at all. It was boom and bust with little, too little management by the “independant” BOE or government. I was so concerned about the runaway train tech boom economy that the banks were fuelling I sold my whole share portfolio in Spring 2000 thus escaping a far more significant market hiccup than subprime. It was only last year that the CAC 40 reached 2000 levels again.

I watched from afar and did a lot of head shaking, he then started going on about WMDs and I got angry because Hans Blix said there weren’t any apart from some old British chemical shells they’d handed over.

And Starmer in all that. Promises, U-turns, hates the socialists in his own party. If ever there was an opportunity to make some vaguely socialist pledges, stick to them and still win an election it’s now. It’s an opportunity Mr DPP, natural authoritarian Tory isn’t interested in.

Can you really look at the Zack Polanski and call him hard left.

Eh? Zack Polanski is Deputy Leader of the Green Party, what has he got to do with the Diane Abbott fiasco??

Btw Zack Polanski is both Jewish and an extremely passionate supporter of Palestine, so he wouldn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of surviving in today’s Labour Party.

If ever there was an opportunity to make some vaguely socialist pledges, stick to them and still win an election it’s now

Put it on a banner for crying out loud.

Swap socialist for progressive to stop people crying about stuff.  Job mostly done.

I hate how the Tories aren’t worried about being hypocritical or failures and just bluster on, and the left are scared of their shadows. Half the problem.

Let’s be really scared about fixing the NHS with tools of state, but instead we can do it with a ‘righty’ ideologically flawed package which ignores basic maths.

What is Great British Energy? and how will it differ from Ynni Cymru which Wales Government are in the process of setting up

Eh? Zack Polanski is Deputy Leader of the Green Party, what has he got to do with the Diane Abbott fiasco??

Sometimes you’re a bit too fast off the cuff for your own good man.

I opened with a general point about the hard left.

I really don’t know what the hard left actually is these days. More like the soft left.

I was using what might be described as an archetype of what is the hard left.

We know Labour don’t have the hard left any longer.

Simple point of reference. What is the hard left? Dunno. Just asking.

(No reference to DA intended.)

Next question about Zack Polanski – who is doing stuff with great clarity; why as deputy is he doing nearly all the Comms stuff?

The Green leaders are joint aren’t they?

The writing was on the wall when Blair removed clause 4. Very little to celebrate in Blair becoming PM.

He was however, much, much better at speaking and interviews than Starmer. You definitely felt that he knew what he was talking about and had a clear vision of where he wanted the country to go. Just that his vision was so pish – New Labour were barely distinguishable from the Conservatives, much like now.

What is Great British Energy? and how will it differ from Ynni Cymru which Wales Government are in the process of setting up

The website is up. It’s scant of real detail but seems pretty dumbed down to me even though it’s heading in the correct direction – with a bit too much ‘wealth fund’ and PFI baggage to it.

The green stuff is pretty scaled back almost to the point of what’s the point?

Worth a read.

https://great-british-energy.org.uk/

It’s generally good to see some positive stuff though as we’re surely short of good positive ideas these days.

Sometimes you’re a bit too fast of the cuff for your own good man.

I opened with a general point about the hard left.

Well okay but since Daz had specifically referenced the “Labour hard left” you perhaps should have made that clear.

Could you really not think of an example of someone who is actually a member of the Labour Party? Are things that serious??

Could you really not think of an example of someone who is actually a member of the Labour Party? Are things that serious??

I can’t.

Are the greens hard left?

I associate that with days of Boss Scargill and associated press war.

Not a phrase that makes sense to me if we’re in the spirit of tree hugging and saving the NHS.

Would love to be a fly on the wall in labour campaign meetings right now. ‘Vote Starmer, get Rayner’ splashed across the newspapers is probably the last thing Starmer expected a week ago. And when asked again about it this morning his response was a tetchy ‘I dealt with that yesterday’. No Keir, you didn’t, all you did was turn a minor issue that no one cared about into a campaign derailing cluster bomb. I’m seriously beginning to think he’s going to completely f*** this up.

Parroting Mandelson Starmer says he will create wealth and not only is he relaxed about ‘people’ making money, he is doggedly determined that they should do so. So, nothing about raising incomes. I see a lot of very necessary strikes on the horizon.

You definitely felt that he knew what he was talking about and had a clear vision of where he wanted the country to go.

LOL I think it was more a case of people thinking they knew what he was talking about! Which to be fair was an extremely clever tactic.

Blair would throw in all the words people wanted to hear in his speeches but without any real context, which left him both commitment-free and free from scrutiny……“good decent people, hard-working families, pride in our country and communities, tough on all that wrong in our society, etc etc”

I once heard Tony Blair speak live when he was Shadow Home Secretary, I had only gone to hear John Smith speak. I was right near the front, just a few feet away from him. I remember thinking after a while “What the **** is this geezer talking about, I understand all the words but I don’t know what the **** he is trying to say”

Straight after him John Smith stepped up to the microphone and proceeded to give an excellent example of how a Scotsman should give a proper rousing speech.

Oh lookout everyone, Labour have had another idea!

They’re going to use local mayors (etc) to help 2,000,000 unemployed people find jobs!

Why has no one thought of this before?

“Straight after him John Smith stepped up to the microphone and proceeded..”

I couldn’t be more anti-Labour Party, but I was genuinely saddened when John Smith died, seemed a genuinely decent guy and a real politician, and probably the leader Britain needed at the time. And we got snake Blair instead. Tragic.
They’ve had a couple of good eggs over the years, Kate Hoey (I voted for her), and … erm…

No Keir, you didn’t, all you did was turn a minor issue that no one cared about into a campaign derailing cluster bomb.

To be honest I don’t think anything could now derail Labour’s general election campaign, even if Starmer turned up to a TV studio drunk and with his knob hanging out of his pants.