UK Election!

I agree, Rone. Both Labour and LibDems need to spend more time convincing people who benefit from more socialist policies to vote for them rather than vote for Tory policies that will make them sicker, poorer, less well educated, in more precarious jobs, in a more polluted environment, eating dodgier foodstuffs, with fewer rights… .

They need to convince people that the vast majority of people will have a higher quality of life under labour/LibDem.

Labour/Libdem should also be hammering home how useless the Tories have been on even their flagship policies such as immigration where those nice European carers have gone home and been replaced with unqualified African carers working under conditions that amount to modern slavery. It’s not even Brexit that has sent the Europeans home, it’s the hostile environment which is Tory policy rather than the withdrawal agreement. The withdrawal agreement is the minimum Britain has to do for Europeans already in the UK, the UK can unilaterally make Britain attractive to Europeans.

I think that Corbyn/Abbott policies belong in the past because the world has changed in th elast 30 years but have no problem with them being in the Labour party as back benchers. I’d just like to hear the shadow front bench telling me how their policies are going change people’s lives for the better. Never have I seen less policy and more petty infighting a month before an election and just days before postal voters will be voting..

Edit: just scrolled through the Guardian headlines for stuff about Labour/Libdem/greens. Something about a Labour “cull” of the left and a podcast about Dianne Abbott, that’s the Guardian. I’m not going to raise my blood pressure with what the Mail or Telgraph have to say.

What I am 100 percent sure on is that the first step to getting anywhere with anything is getting the Tories out for a long time and to rebuild the whole system , so right now he’s the only option .

True but the big risk is that if people see no meaningful change in 5 years they will just vote tory again next time as per usual and revert to form.  I don’t know why they do it, presumably they can’t remember how bad the tory government was as even if Labour don’t make much of a difference I can’t believe they would actually be worse for the vast majority of people.

When Labour last lost power to the tories did the tories make anything better, clearly not, but for some reason people thought they would – based on what?

Given the current position of the tories Starmer could have been a LOT more progressive and still been in the same position so why hasn’t he been?  Why would he suddenly become more progressive a year after winning, is it some sort of master plan?

He hasn’t been more progressive because he’s not. All this sucking up to big business and austerity rhetoric isn’t a front, they mean it. What’s keeping the Abbot case alive is that many MPs are beginning to be made to feel vulnerable themselves.

Has Starmer said or done anything to make you believe he’ll enact those changes once he has the keys to number 10?

Many on here seem to think that Starmer u-turns on everything so what makes you think that once elected he won’t turn from being a tory-lite austerity fan into an avid mmt proponent?

Starmer isn’t trying to appeal to ‘Tory’ voters, as they will vote tory no matter what, he is trying to appeal to the undecided voters, who tend to change dependent on how they feel about the parties, last election, they predominantly voted Tory, if Labour don’t try to appeal to these voters, then they will never win, again i’m not even sure what the whole philosophy is around Labour should be going for the left only, i’ve never been around to see a leftist government, ‘New’ Labour suffered the same name calling from the left back in 1997 as Starmer’s Labour is getting today.

for some reason people thought they would – based on what

Im confident that a large part of the electorate doesn’t even attempt to be aware of the political or economic ramifications and are just taken in by media projected populist sound bites.  Let’s face it, some fairly significant leverage was placed within the image of a narcissistic clown with an 8yo’s hairstyle on several occasions over the last few years.

True but the big risk is that if people see no meaningful change in 5 years they will just vote tory again next time as per usual and revert to form

I have some sympathy with this . People will expect improvements in basic services and if this doesn’t happen blaming the Tories will only get them so far , I suspect the majority will be big enough that a 2nd term will be pretty likely.

The other side of that is what happens to the Tories, how do they respond and rebuild. A Lurch further to the right might make some inroads but I don’t think it makes them a prospect for government.

‘New’ Labour suffered the same name calling from the left back in 1997 as Starmer’s Labour is getting today.

Had policies that Thatcher had instigated and then invaded Iraq. Blair then promised a referendum on Lisbon. New Labour were very much a part of the swing to the right in British politics and I’m sceptical about Starmer doing anything but continue it  if left to do his thing..

It’s fantastic.

Starmer is refusing to play the Tories’ game and differentiate himself from the them wherever possible (and slightly overdoing it IMO). He’s refusing to get dragged into the Culture War shite.

So what do the left-wing faction in his own party do? Fan the flames of their own internal culture war.

Brilliant.

We are so close to being rid of this awful, corrupt, morally bankrupt GINO. The UK cannot afford to eff this up.

Is this such a crime , trying to appeal to Tory voters I mean not daily mail columnists .

Well it’s certainly an arse about face way of doing things.

Generally politicians come up with convincing arguments explaining to voters why their solutions are the correct ones.

Politicians are not generally themselves won over by voters with opposing views. After all that is the whole point of forming a political party, otherwise why bother? Unless politics is just a career move and not driven by any commitment or sense of mission.

Imagine a Labour politician out canvassing and knocking on a Tory voter’s door, after 20 minutes the Labour politician walks away having been unable to convince the Tory voter, but the good news is that the Tory voter has convinced him and he now supports Tory policies. Is that really something to celebrate?

And to apply all that to the current Diane Abbott nonsense it is being suggested that the whole row was deliberately orchestrated to appeal to Tory voters – Starmer’s strategists wanted a high profile media row with headlines that would appeal to them.

That strategy was used with some effect by Tony Blair – he deliberately went out of his way to pick high profile rows with the left in an attempt to appeal to Tory voters and right-wing columnists.

The problem currently now appears to be that Morgan McSweeney and David Evans are amateurs and the thing has spun out of control, with even blairite politicians appalled by the treatment that Diane Abbott has received and yesterday the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party no longer sticking to the script:

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labours-fight-the-left-risks-spinning-out-control/

We are so close to being rid of this awful, corrupt, morally bankrupt GINO. The UK cannot afford to eff this up.

Great, let’s get Tories out. I’d love nothing more. But…

Starmer is refusing to play the Tories’ game and differentiate himself from the them

If they’re replaced by a party that is no different then what will change?

If they’re replaced by a party that is no different then what will change?

They are different. Thinking all parties/politicians are the same is a Tory trap. Would I like them to be more different? Absolutely. I’m sure they could afford to be a bit more to the left, but right now step one is get the Tories out

Many on here seem to think that Starmer u-turns on everything

That is a very strange thing to say. ‘Seem to think’ and ‘on here’??

Every man and his dog knows that Keir Starmer has carried out spectacular U-turns, it has become the stuff of political legends.

From the immediate U-turns on his dishonestly called 10 “Pledges” to his much more recent U-turn on the £28 billion Green pledge. His period as Labour leader has been characterized by his never-ending handbrake turns.

Having said that I do agree with the point that you were trying to make – no one knows how Starmer will behave when he becomes Prime Minister after July 4th.

Yes he could turn out to be a radical leftie, which is something that the Tories are trying to exploit by suggesting, quite rightly, that Starmer will say anything to win an election. Although I have to confess that I consider it somewhat unlikely.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-pledges-promises-b1078220.html

Has the added bonus from the Tories’ POV that all the students will be at home.

Been thinking about students. As universities tend to be in urban more lefty places that aren’t going to go Tory anyway, wouldn’t it benefit the Tories to have an election when they’re away from their Shire homes?

They are different. Thinking all parties/politicians are the same is a Tory trap.

Apart from when they are pretty much the same on things that make any difference to peoples lives.  Yes I would hope Labour won’t be so corrupt, wouldn’t give their mates the returns, won’t be so vindictive and so on but that doesn’t really make much difference to peoples day to day lives.

What makes a difference are the policies and strategies of the party to improve services, increase equality etc,. and I can’t see any real difference between what Labour are stating and what the Tories are stating they will do.

Again, this whole ‘Tory’ voter thing is just a weird phrase, Labour are appealing to those who may change their vote, they’re not Tory, they’re not Labour, they’re people who have a vote. It’s just another thing on here to try and belittle Starmer and Labour as always, same as the ‘centre right’ stuff about those who back Labour under Starmer.

If Labour go for just those who are leftists, then it’ll be another blowout, maybe if the UK had more left/far left voters it would be easier for Starmer to sell policies against that, but there isn’t, the UK has been right of centre for the last decade or so, it was just left of centre before that, i can’t remember it ever being proper left.

The people who are saying, ‘The only thing that matters is to get the Tories out!’ sound like the Underpants Gnomes.

Phase 1: Get the Tories out!

Phase 2: ?

Phase 3: Sunlit Uplands!

The rest of us are very interested in step 2 so to be constantly told it doesn’t matter is getting annoying.

Edit – forget I said anything.

it does matter but without 1 there is no 2

it does matter but without 1 there is no 2

Without a Phase 2 then Phase 3 is an even more crackpot Tory government in 5 years.

@csb It depends where they’re registered to vote – many are registered where they are at uni rather than at home. If term has finished a lot of them won’t bother rather than arranging a postal vote.

Anyway the Daily Telegraph are lovin it:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/30/angela-rayner-has-dealt-a-devastating-blow-to-keir-starmer/

Angela is a Northern lass, ain’t she?

I’m not sure quoting the Telegraph preaching to its readership is quite the support for your view that you think it is.

The whole thing has been badly handled by Starmer/the Labour Party. Let’s focus on that rather than the election campaign and indeed the country that have been badly handled by the Tory party for the last 14 years.

Focus people!

I think it’s reasonable to assume Lab will win with an outright majority too.

Yeah but if you assume you make a sum in the middle of ase or something. It’s going to be a long five weeks with christ knows what twists and turns to come.

As already mentioned, labour need to appeal to the swing vote, not the hard left. That’s how elections are won. And if they do that and the tories still win because the hard left decided they didn’t like labour policies and didnt vote for them, well that’s the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face imo..

last election, they predominantly voted Tory

Actually they didnt. The undecided seemed to mostly stay at home or vote for libdem etc. Its always worth looking at the actual numbers vs percentages.

May did a far better job of increasing the tory vote than Johnson did. The difference was in 2019 the labour vote collapsed by a couple of million with the tory vote increasing by 300k.

again i’m not even sure what the whole philosophy is around Labour should be going for the left only

Possibly because you are making it up? The problem is Labour is currently going for the centrists and right only. Even under Blair there was more of a compromise with things being offered to the left but now its absolutely no compromise or attempt to appeal to the left. Just shouts about “tory enablers” whilst being busy welcoming hard right ERG members to the party and purging the left.

‘New’ Labour suffered the same name calling from the left back in 1997 as Starmer’s Labour is getting today.

Again new Labour were moderated to some degree by the left wing of the party. Notice how Starmer has relentlessly purged those?

Plus as arguments go its pretty weak one considering how much new labour normalised hard right policies to the extent that come Cameron they could do things even Thatcher thought were a bit extreme right.

And if they do that and the tories still win because the hard left decided they didn’t like labour policies and didnt vote for them, well that’s the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face imo..

And also a good example of what happened in 2019.

So what do the left-wing faction in his own party do? Fan the flames of their own internal culture war.

Oh give over. The left wing have done nothing of the sort, the only fanning of flames has been from Starmer and his right wing cabal who think purging the left is more important than conducting their election campaign. No one in the country actually cares if Diane Abbot stands to be an MP or not, and yet the Labour leadership have bizarrely blown it up into the major issue in their campaign when they could have just let her stand and no one would have noticed or cared.

Anyway I’m still sticking to voting green. Elphicke was the last straw, this idiocy just confirms it.

I’m not sure quoting the Telegraph preaching to its readership is quite the support for your view that you think it is.

The link shows that the Daily Telegraph is exploiting the divisions that the Diane Abbott row has caused at the very top of the Labour Party.

It makes my point perfectly.

And if they do that and the tories still win because the hard left decided they didn’t like labour policies and didnt vote for them, well that’s the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face imo..

This is rather flawed logic.

So swing voters are allowed to look at policies and decide which way to vote and hence policies need to be aimed at them?

Whereas the moderate left (lets get rid of this bollox hard left considering labour have welcomed the hard right erg members) shouldnt take the same approach because, why exactly?

This is the problem. Why shouldnt the left use the same approach as the right and demand concessions for votes?

If they dont then they will continue to be ignored whilst the right wingers are pandered to.

No one in the country actually cares if Diane Abbot stands to be an MP or not, and yet the Labour leadership have bizarrely blown it up into the major issue in their campaign when they could have just let her stand and no one would have noticed or cared.

Exactly this.

If the hard left don’t like the current version of the Labour Party why don’t they all toddle off and form their own party – like Reform UK have on the right.

Because they know the middle ground is where the votes are, and they’d rather like to keep their jobs!

Yes I would hope Labour won’t be so corrupt, wouldn’t give their mates the returns, won’t be so vindictive and so on but that doesn’t really make much difference to peoples day to day lives.

If you are homeless/disabled/immigrant etc then the “vindictive” part of your sentence probably does matter to your day to day life.  As a lucky middle class white guy will I be in a better place on 5th July with the tories out?  Probably not but then I’m not suffering in todays world – but perhaps I’ll despair less about the points you made and that would be enough to actually make me feel happier about living in this country.  If a politician can get you to vote for them because their tone makes you happier either they are very good or the alternative is bad.

As a lucky middle class white guy will I be in a better place on 5th July with the tories out?

Absolutely, and it is rather shortsighted if you can’t see that.

If the hard left don’t like the current version of the Labour Party why don’t they all toddle off and form their own party – like Reform UK have on the right.

Because they know the middle ground is where the votes are, and they’d rather like to keep their jobs!

Actually they might – if they all agree enough on how hard etc.  BUT as Reform and others have shown in the past it’s much harder to get traction forming a new party in the 2 party state we live in than it should be.  I think, given how recently Corbin was leader, they also feel Labour IS “their” party and it should change from within.  After all 20-25 years ago if you were a Eurosceptic tory, the cry was “why don’t you toddle off to join/form UKIP” – that changed dramatically and now I imagine the message is “if you are a Europhile tory, why don’t you join LibDems or form your own party”.  Lets sat 10% of the party, and 10% of the parliamentary party wanted to form a “more left” version of labour – should they be entitled to take 10% of the assets of the party?  What if it was 50% – then you essentially have “divorce” proceedings between two factions.  In fact if you had 10% of your MPs who were driving divisions – might it be in your interests to give them 10% of the cash to F off and form their own party!

I’m not convinced that he’d left or hard right do things for votes – that’s the whole point they are conviction led not trying to temper their convictions to win support.

No one in the country actually cares if Diane Abbot stands to be an MP or not, and yet the Labour leadership have bizarrely blown it up into the major issue in their campaign when they could have just let her stand and no one would have noticed or cared.

Oddly I don’t think the labour leadership have blown it into a story – the media have.  Perhaps labour have been naive in thinking they control what’s headline grabbing and could have extinguished the burning embers quicker but the media have made this a story, presumably stoked by Tory supporters, ironically aided and abetted by the hard left, the racists and the anti-semites all cooperating together!  However, whilst its a story for people in politics who care – it won’t be the topic of conversation around 98% of British dinner tables.

Because they know the middle ground is where the votes are, and they’d rather like to keep their jobs!

Aside from the middle ground isnt where the votes are. Otherwise the libdems would be in perpetual power. The middle ground is, currently, the ones who can be swayed to either side.

However that relies on both the left and right playing along with it.

Given the mess the country is in after too much time pandering to the centrists its not surprising that people are increasingly questioning it especially given the centrists inability to compromise at all.

Insane energy bills

Frightening food prices

Stratospheric levels of immigration and abused asylum system and inevitable housing shortage

Long NHS waiting lists

Police failing to prevent or investigate crimes such as burglaries

Can’t wait to hear what the different parties  propose to solve the country’s problems. So far  Labour have come up with nationalised GB Energy which will fix the cost of living crisis with “green” energy- wind and solar are more expensive so energy bills will go up not down

If they’re replaced by a party that is no different then what will change?

That’s is a deep flaw hidden within that sentence.

Labour could have gone full Corbyn, *again*, and Labour would have lost. *Again*. Blame the electorate, the media, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The UK at the moment won’t swing that far left as much as I wish it would. It’s a fact of UK politics at the moment.

Look,  I voted for Corbyn twice as I’m  pragmatic and he/Labour were the best chance of ridding us of the Tories but it didn’t work. Even as I voted I knew it was a lost cause.

I’m sick and tired of labour being an opposition protest party standing upon principle and forever dooming itself to opposition.

Right or wrong Starmer can’t go towards Corbyn policies during an election.

If he does we know the outcome and I for one am sick and tired of that outcome.

Get these *****ers out!

Oddly I don’t think the labour leadership have blown it into a story – the media have.

Nah, Britain’s first ever black female MP (and someone who has been an MP for 37 years) being told that no decision has been made concerning whether she can stand as a candidate on July 4th, was always going to be a big story. Starmer and his strategists damn well knew that – there is no possibility that they thought it would be ignored. They are not idiots.

Diane Abbott is black and left-wing, she is hated by Tory Party supporters. The Tory Party chief donor said that she made him want to hate all black women and that someone should shoot her.

A public row with Diane Abbott was exactly what Starmer and his advisors wanted, as they try to appeal to Tory voters. But they just didn’t expect it to all spiral out of control. By now it undoubtedly should have been announced that she won’t be allowed to stand, but the pushback has been too great for them to make the announcement.

The link shows that the Daily Telegraph is exploiting the divisions that the Diane Abbott row has caused at the very top of the Labour Party.

It makes my point perfectly.

I’m not sure many “centrist” or left wing voters read or are influenced by the Torygraph. Very much preaching to their own choir.

grimep

Free Member

Insane energy bills

Frightening food prices

Stratospheric levels of immigration and abused asylum system and inevitable housing shortage

Long NHS waiting lists

Police failing to prevent or investigate crimes such as burglaries

And I had you down as a Tory supporter grimep!

I had no idea that you are so critical of the current Tory government, who will you be voting for – Reform UK?

Do tell. Although it was a bit of a laugh yesterday this thread has become a tad boring today, just going round in circles really now. It needs a new fun angle I reckon.