UK Election!

I believe that Labour winning such a huge majority is fantastic, but I also believe that only receiving 34% of the vote is shite and very disappointing.

In a four horse race where nominal share would be 25%, I think getting 34/25ths of that is actually pretty decent when set in context.

Alternatively, by that type of logic (34% of 62% turn out = 20% of people actually voted for Labour) we’ve pretty well never had a government with a true mandate.

Does Lisa Nandy not qualify for this exercise, or is one Asian parent insufficient?

Nandy counts for sure, but she’s not in the cabinet. Not all ministers are in the cabinet. Another reason why the make up of the cabinet isn’t the end of the story when looking at representation in the senior ranks of the Labour Party.

Cabinet and full front bench team here.

There is a reason why this place is a political echo and as a consequence totally unrepresentative of wider political opinions, and unable therefore to engage in a sensible exchange of ideas, it is the staggering level of intolerance shown to anyone who should dare to deviate from the extremely narrowly defined STW political consensus.

Rambling post alert!

^^That got me thinking ernie.

The centrist/left bias of the forum is pretty hard to deny, ditto the thoughts on Brexit and the infamous STW “pile-on.” Where we all are on that spectrum is for another post.

I think the forum got here organically from a general lefty bias to far more of an echo chamber in large part as a reaction to the Tory government and later, Brexit. Brexit particularly polarised this and other forums just as it did people in real life. I think both factors pushed political threads posters further left and ever more anti Brexit. At that point some people will have ducked out of the threads or began to post less in them.

Now, apart from the occasional… visitor… the political threads could be accused of being an echo chamber. So, do we want to change that and how? I dont go on other forums these days so no idea how Pistonheads etc are? Are they similar or are dissenting voices more tolerated or simply ignored? Honest question as I don’t know? I also wonder how we would encourage dissenting voices? If 10 new members joined and constantly pointed out how Braveman is completely right in her views, do we sit back and let those views go unchallenged? The echo chamber would almost definitely kick in and many if us would feel compelled to call them out on that opinion. You are a decent guy Ernie and I suspect you would be one of the people keen to point out Braverman’s horrific faults.

“binners Vs ernie, the eternal battle for our souls.”

I post that title tongue in cheek but I’ll use you both as examples here as you are both totems of “opposing” views. I put the quotes there as I’ve never seen you as poles apart, more flip sides of the same coin, neither side ever being completely wrong, or right. Both of you might be a little miffed at that which is possibly my point.lol You are not as far apart as you might think you are, your goals are very similar but you see different paths as the best way to get there.

To me the only difference between you both is that binners is (arguably) more pragmatic and you are (arguably) more idealistic. This is the problem, and why you both butt heads, as neither of you are empirically correct, or perhaps you both are! (I’m stretching empirically here…)

We need idealists in this world, more now than ever, it’s not a bad stance in any shape or form.

But…

We need pragmatists in this world, more now than ever, it’s not a bad stance in any shape or form.

So here we are…

As the political threads stand, they are probably, currently more composed of pragmatists than idealists in broad terms. That unfortunately does lead to the pile in effect kicking in. Things might recalibrate over time as opinions change or new members arrive of course. What we can do is keep things a bit more civil though and remember that, fundamentally, we all want what’s best for the country and society… even grimep would agree with that.

Ernesto – my understanding of the Forde report is that it was looking into factionalism and antisemitism, no?

I’m just having a google around and its saying it identifies issues, which the Labour website then details how these are being addressed as an ongoing process.

Can you point me to the bit where it says that the Labour party is institutianally racist, as yourself and TJ are claiming please?

In a four horse race where nominal share would be 25%, I think getting 34/25ths of that is actually pretty decent when set in context.

I think its pretty poor – but then I am used to a 5 party race where the winners get 40+ %

The centrist/left bias of the forum is pretty hard to deny,

Its not centre left.  Its centre right establishment.  Its just a load of folk who are centre right claim to be centre left.  I find the right wing establishment comfy middle class bias very obvious.

But the modern labour party is centre right.  anti tax, anti spending, pro brexit, racist and pro privitisation.  these are not lerft wing positions.  the frogs have been well and truely boiled

It’s funny, but a forum I used to a big hitter on drove me from the right to the left with the attitude of a minority of posters and I now no longer frequent that forum. I now find myself being driven towards the right (that I still consider left) by a minority of posters who frequent this forum…

Binners

The Labour Party’s response
Promptly after receipt of the Forde Report, the NEC determined that it should be published in full.

At the time of publication the NEC, the General Secretary, David Evans and the Leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer issued apologies (below) for the circumstances that led to allegations of racism and harassment not being addressed.

The Forde Report

Depressingly, we were provided with a wealth of
evidence (both oral and written) regarding the perceived
widespread existence of discriminatory behaviours,
based on religion, race, gender and sexual orientation.
Although we recognise that this evidence was provided
by a self-selecting group of people, who represent a small
proportion of the overall membership of the Party, it was
nevertheless both shocking and disappointing

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/The-Forde-Report.pdf

Edit:  It started out as you say but uncovered a cesspit of discrimination so scope was widened.

widespread existence of discriminatory behaviours,
based on religion, race, gender and sexual orientation

That doesn’t mean “institutionally racist”. Failure to address such behaviours (which sadly happen in any large organisation) when identified could well be a sign of institutional racism.

Yes Uncle Jezza… as I said earlier, I’ve just read that

I’ll try again… can you point me to the bit that says the Labour party is institutionally racist, as your claiming please?

Institutionally racist is my conclusion watching from the sidelines.  Its obvious and overt to me.

A fair personal opinion, if not explicitly stated by the QC or his team. Do you think anything has changed since the report was written? What do you think of the response of the current Labour leadership as detailed at the link you shared?

Without knowing all the people and their skills on offer though I can’t say whether upping the % while getting me the most qualified people is achievable currently which points to a different problem.

Is absolutely conversation we should be having, and is the problem we – as a nation/society – need to be solving. Whatifs and tokenism do not help.

Institutionally racist is my conclusion watching from the sidelines.

Ah… ok… so….

Institutionally racist is my conclusion watching from the sidelines. Its obvious and overt to me.

While you may be right,  it doesn’t seem to be in the report. Written by the group that had all the actual evidence.

Do you think anything has changed since the report was written?

Not significantly watching the treatment of Abbott and other minority candidates who are clearly held to a higher standard than white folk and more easily deselected

What do you think of the response of the current Labour leadership as detailed at the link you shared?

Mealy mouthed fine words with no action.  Where are the significant numbers of sackings?  should have been dozens from all side being given their jotters

More cash – institutional racism is when an organisation consistently discriminates against folk because of race.  The labour party does so. ( and on other grounds)

Failure to address such behaviours (which sadly happen in any large organisation) when identified could well be a sign of institutional racism.

Well the behaviors still persist so what conclusion does that bring?  Look at the treatment of abbott and co.  why were those guilty of the discriminatory behaviour not6 sacked>  there were loads of them on all sides

institutional racism is when an organisation consistently discriminates against folk because of race. The labour party does so. ( and on other grounds)

I did say you may be right!

My question really is why is that not in the report if the evidence was provided at the time. As much a criticism of the report than your opinion.

(Though you do come across as very entrenched with a few comments and opinions recently)

clearly held to a higher standard than white folk and more easily deselected

Interesting opinion. My take is that most of those deselected due to the tightening of expectations on standards after Forde have been white. But specifically as regards Abbot, she apologised, and took the training Labour have put in place. She should have be reinstated faster…but looking at other MPs and councillors etc that have been through this, the whole process needs to be quicker, I see no evidence that she was singled because of her ethnicity.

In response to Binners 🙂

My question really is why is that not in the report if the evidence was provided at the time. As much a criticism of the report than your opinion.

Not in the remit?  It had already been hugely extended.  IMO if the culture tolerates discrimination then the organisation is institutionally racist

Has there been an election, did I miss something, did Reform sweep to power and overnight demand anyone with any skin pigment should officially ‘go back where they came from’.

Listen to yourselves, racism is there just below the surface regardless if ethnicity. If we really want move to genuinely inclusive society we appoint people on skill and experience, ethnicity should not matter. To a greater extent this is what Starmer has done. The best way of increasing harmony in society is not to keep nit picking and point scoring, we need a more equitable society so people are less likely to be descending into othering.

Ah, good stuff, we’re back to being predominantly centre right now on this site :yes:

As for deselection, that was as simple as you could get, even Abbott, who was brought back in before the election is still actively messaging against Labour via her posts online, less than a week in government and you have MPs not towing the line, and probably the reason she’ll be kicked out the party sooner rather than later, not due to race, just due to doing their own thing, same thing would happen to anyone who did that in their day job.

Interesting to see if the newly elected Independent Leicester South MP will be the first MP forced to resign following the General Election.

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/campaigner-for-new-pro-gaza-independent-mp-charged-with-terrorism-offences-n23wg6b9

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/law/article/leicester-man-terrorism-offences-charged-ttp72pcx5

https://news.sky.com/story/jonathan-ashworth-calls-on-new-leicester-south-mp-to-explain-dealings-with-man-charged-with-terror-offences-13176088

tjagain
Full Member
The centrist/left bias of the forum is pretty hard to deny,

Its not centre left. Its centre right establishment. Its just a load of folk who are centre right claim to be centre left. I find the right wing establishment comfy middle class bias very obvious.

I had to make some sweeping statements to keep a large post as brief as possible. Also I think we could could have huge post on where we all are on the political spectrum but fundamentally it doesn’t matter.

The last point in my post is what matters to me. The posters on here want a better society, I dont care where they think they are on the political spectrum and they shouldn’t care where I think they are either. 😀

Interesting to see if the newly elected Independent Leicester South MP will be the first MP forced to resign following the General Election.

So he should resign because someone he knows is being charged?, what’s the actual offence the person in question is being charged with?

@somafunk https://www.leics.police.uk/news/leicestershire/news/2024/july/man-charged-with-encouragement-of-terrorism/

Not that its evidence the MP has done anything more than simply talk to constituents

Its not centre left.  Its centre right establishment.  Its just a load of folk who are centre right claim to be centre left.

LMAO

Of course it’s left wing here – everyone is happy to use performative terms like Gammon, talk about how hideously right wing even One Nation Tories are, and see any hint of sympathy with Reform as signs of  unadorned stupidity or evil.

Not that I necessarily disagree with many of the opinions expressed here, but I am surprised by the level of self awareness your comment shows.

Cheers piemonster,

”Majid Novsarka, also known as Majid Freeman, 36, of Cecil Road, Leicester, has been charged with encouragement of terrorism and supporting a proscribed organisation.”

I guess the dickhead was waving a flag or similar at one of the marches, bloody idiot.  Meanwhile 40,000 have been indiscriminately killed in gaza, and a very clear distinction is made in the media when reporting Ukrainian deaths vs Palestinian deaths, as an aside have we seen the legal advice given to the government back in January this year regarding the possibility of enabling a genocide by supplying military equipment and enabling the use of UK surveillance drones/aircraft/air bases in Cyprus, I believe Kier Starmer was asking for it to be published months ago as a matter of extreme urgency so I imagine it’s top of his to-do list.

Agree, it is left wing.  Not socialist left wing but no way centre right.

Petty hair splitting aside, I’ll echo what someone way upthread said…I’m still a little bit in disbelief at seeing our government actualy, errm, governing?

It’s almost hard to belive after the last lot, whos M.O. was seemingly just to gut the country, sever international relations, stoke hatred and run off with the dosh.

Is this real life?

Governing you say? Timpson is the 15th Prisons Minister in 14 years. The civil service think it can take a year to master the brief. I’ll let that settle.

BTW the UK is socially centre left and economically centre right. I see little evidence that STW is any different.  The party occupying that middle ground may have moved more than once in recent years. The populace has not.

Anyone who thinks the consensus on this forum is left wing in any way has been a frog thats been boiled.  Ernie is left wing. I am centre left.  we are both way to the left of the consensus on here   the labour party is centrist at best and most of its policies are centre right.  SNP have been way to the left of labour and they are centre left.

the political consensus in this country has moved so far right.   Now lets see.  Against tax rises, increased defense spending, no benefits increase ( even refusing to look at the 2 child limit), no redistributive policy, pro brexit, pro privatisation, neoliberal economic policy. very left wing. indeed

Name me one left wing policy the labour party have?

Why does everything have to be neatly pigeon holed as left or right? it’s a very simplistic, childish, even, way of looking at things.

Problems require the correct solutions, not be dictated by some partisan ideology regardless of whether its suitable.

Why does everything have to be neatly pigeon holed as left or right?

And why do people sound like they are talking down to anyone who isn’t exactly like them?

Name me one left wing policy the labour party have?

VAT on private school fees

Fining water company bonuses for polluting

If market dynamics is a RW ethos, increasing minimum wage to a living wage and reforming zero hours rules is quite LW

Problems require the correct solutions, not be dictated by some partisan ideology regardless of whether its suitable.

Correct solution for who?  What is “correct” for millionaires and landlords may be very different for what is “correct” for the ex squaddie living on the street.

the political consensus in this country has moved so far right

So, it’s not you that’s left wing, it’s just that everyone else is far right wing.   Or more realistically you are just much further left of centre than your subjective perspective tells you.

But let’s try an objective measure, what media outlet do people use round here? My impression is that by far the most quoted outlet is The Guardian, with the BBC sometimes referenced despite a thread not too long ago about how awfully right wing biased it (or Laura Kuenssberg) was. Right wing news outlets are referred to in derogatory terms such as “Daily Heil”. From this we can conclude that most people posting around here are centre left or further left.

I don’t expect any argument to deflect you from your opinion, so I’ll say no more.

VAT on private school fees

Ill give you that one – a tiny marginal policy

Fining water company bonuses for polluting

Nope – the left wing solutioin is nationalization

increasing minimum wage to a living wage

Is that a commitment?  I have never seen it mooted and the “living wage~” is far from a living wage

reforming zero hours rules is quite LW

NO commitment to anything radical nor to banning it.  Whats proposed is window dressing and will have zero effect

None of those things are very radicaland all would fit happily in the centre right partiesd manifgestos europe wide

Where is the radical stuff?  Redistibution of wealth?  Taxation on rich folk?  Nationalisation of monopolies, left wing economics?