UK Election!

Don’t forget public health measures to minimise obesity etc – in the long run that would save the NHS billions and also just be good for us all.

Surely a lot was to do with lansley reforms moving social care responsibility to councils &  then decinating their funding with austerity.

Yes.

There are two key parts to this.

Firstly the babbling about the NHS being a sacred cow which is beyond discussion isnt only babbling but outright lies to hide the fact the “reforms” have failed.

Its has been under continuous reform and “improvement” since it was created. The problem is in recent years the “improvement” have been a net negative.

So anytime some tory **** says fixing the NHS cant be discussed tell them to **** off and ask them why they dont want to discuss why their “improvements” have failed and they are trying to hide behind the sacred cow bollocks.

Secondly its not so much the councils but the tories (plus sadly new labours) idea that the councils shouldnt be trusted with stuff which has resulted in social care being privatised and then flogged off to the private equity firms who saw massive profit opportunities.

Result being the council bills raising massively and hence bed blocking occurring.

My condolences fwiw @thecaptain

We are being priced out of having a family….

having kids is now a luxury many can’t afford…. what state to get into

This is totally the wrong lesson to draw from the data, and yet these articles always do. NB that the long term decline of fertility below the replacement rate occurred in the UK through economic boom and decline, and the same trends are seen in countries richer (Japan) and poorer (Italy) than the UK. Women in a society generally have fewer children when they are better educated, greater participation in the labour force, and better access to contraception/reproductive health. This is why baby incentivisation plans (in Hungary or Korea or Russia for example) never ever work across the whole population, and why people still have kids in recessions. UK’s declining birthrate is not due to short term cozzy livs.

Funding is so poor that carers get barely minimum wage – which means its very hard to recruit staff, which means delays in getting folk discharged.  This is a problem that can only be solved with money – lots of it.

Spending as a proportion of GDP is fairly normal for the UK compared to other western ‘developed’ countries (excluding USA).

The problems of the NHS aren’t really exclusive, but perhaps the issue is the way the money is being spent?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_spending_as_percent_of_gross_domestic_product_(GDP)_by_country#/media/File:Health_spending_by_country._Percent_of_GDP_(Gross_domestic_product).png

There are many weeks where I find myself, on a Monday, wishing it was already Friday.

This week the feeling is exceptionally strong.

I CBA to search and find the post regarding Blair & Ecclestone, but wonder what the OP thinks about this:

Rishi Sunak abandoned his “legacy” policy to ban smoking for future generations amid a backlash from the tobacco industry in the form of legal threats, lobbying and a charm offensive aimed at Conservative MPs, an investigation reveals.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/29/rishi-sunak-smoking-ban-bill-backlash-tobacco-firms

That’s completely different as it doesn’t fit the anti-Starmer narrative

I reckon it’d cost the lobbying parties less than a million, even in today’s money.

Sunak was crowned, not elected. That came at a price for him (and everyone else) because he wasn’t allowed to do a lot of things any more. His weakness combined with his entitlement and tetchiness makes him the risible and intensely dislikeable character he is.

Enjoying Jimmy Dimly getting tied in knots on GMB this morning.

At the risk of becoming some kind of Sunak apologist: the tobacco ban was never going to make it into the “wash up” batch of legislation to be pushed through between calling the election and dissolving parliament. It was too big, too complicated and too early. The plans weren’t clear and the Lords would have opposed and amended it.

That’s a world away from taking a donation from Bernie Ecclestone and then giving his business a special exemption. There’s no defending that – why even deploy whataboutery?

So anytime some tory **** says fixing the NHS cant be discussed tell them to **** off and ask them why they dont want to discuss why their “improvements” have failed and they are trying to hide behind the sacred cow bollocks.

The sacred cow stuff does suit the narrative though. Anyone and everyone can (and does) bang on about “fixing the NHS” although it’s got more insidious recently with attacks on “managers” or “admin” (too many managers, too many pencil-pushers…)

It’d be better to ask any Tory what happened to the additional £350m a week the NHS was supposed to get, where are the 40 new hospitals…?

Spending as a proportion of GDP is fairly normal for the UK compared to other western ‘developed’ countries

Its really not as that data shows – consistent funding below others.  The reason it shows high the last few years is not an increase in funding – its the fall in GDP and includes the billions wasted on useless PPE

The stupid fake market stuff in England wastes 10% of the NHS budget – Scotland does not have this and admin costs are half!  10% of budget compared to 20% in England

The stupid fake market stuff in England wastes 10% of the NHS budget – Scotland does not have this and admin costs are half!  10% of budget compared to 20% in England

Is there a source for this claim (that comes up fairly often)?

I did try googling and only came across this decade old writeup from the Socialist Health Association:

the highest [hospital management and administration] costs per capita (after numerous adjustments) are in those systems with complex payment systems.  Systems which have single payer and block funding have the lowest costs.  … the best estimate for England is for administration and management to account for between 17% and 21% of total expenditure…  The study suggest that a base level of around 12% is necessary for any system.

In comparisons of relative expenditure England comes out slightly higher than Wales but Scotland is significantly lower.  The explanation though appears to be a technical one in that management of capital in Scotland is more centralised.  In fact there is not a lot of difference between the three nations.

NB this is for looking at all management and administration costs (not just “fake market stuff”) in hospitals (not healthcare systems as a whole). The suggestion seems to be that if the admin and management happens centrally, that’s not a hospital cost but doesn’t mean the cost is removed from the healthcare system as a whole. It might still be a bit cheaper though.

Cost of the Market in our NHS

At the risk of becoming some kind of Sunak apologist:

“Risk”? :-)

PCA – I assume thats the data I got that from – its certainly around the right time.

there is no doubt that the scottish system is much simpler and easier to administrate with less layers

See Jimmy Dimly is going with “Accuse your opponents of what your guilty of” strategy

“I CBA to search and find the post regarding Blair & Ecclestone, but wonder what the OP thinks about this:
Rishi Sunak abandoned his “legacy” policy to ban smoking for future generations amid a backlash from the tobacco industry in the form of legal threats, lobbying and a charm offensive aimed at Conservative MPs, an investigation reveals.”

What I was pointing out was that both Parties are corrupt, I really thought Blairs Cabinet were going to be different, but a million from Ecclestone changed their firmly held beliefs. Starmer hasnt shown any corruption yet, but almost all Governments in the past have taken money, or people in the Party have taken money to advance someones cause. I hope that’ll change, and we have a government we can be proud of.

On another point, I’m surprised Starmers record as DPP hasnt been put under attack. There is plenty of ammunition there, but I havent heard anything about it, maybe the tories have more skeletons in their cupboard than Starmer does?

alanl
On another point, I’m surprised Starmers record as DPP hasnt been put under attack. There is plenty of ammunition there

Genuine question, what did he mess up heading the DPP?

One of the issues with UK politics is bribery is legal.  Donations for favours, non exec directorships etc.

I do not think Starmer is corrupt at all.  However I do believe others in the Shadow cabinet are and am certain Streeting is.

PCA – I assume thats the data I got that from – its certainly around the right time.

Okay, well, if that’s right – it doesn’t say what you are presenting it as saying.

“Risk”?

I think you’re confusing me with someone else. The only other thing I can remember saying in defence of Sunak was that it wasn’t fair to accuse him of being an anti-Pakistani bigot because he (Sunak) objected to being called a “P***”.

I am surprised to see a couple of people here (who probably would say they aren’t bigots) thinking that the victim of racist abuse was a racist themselves or that it was okay to be racist towards them because they were nasty.

“Genuine question, what did he mess up heading the DPP?”

It came up on FB yesterday. I know there were rumours about Rotherham rape gangs, but on closer inspection he didnt have anything to do with that. Jimmy Saville too, thats rather cloudy, CBA looking any further. First article from a search linked below, no doubt there are many more accusations if you have time to search:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/23/keir-starmer-lawyer-dpp

accusations

🤔

aqlanl – good for you for doing the research and realising that its false accusations

Wonder if Alani will go back onto his FB feed and point out the facts?

#DoubtIt

If the Mail/Express/Sun/Telegraph had anything at all on Starmer that they could publish without being done for slander, they’d have put it out there a long time ago

no doubt there are many more accusations if you have time to search:

The problem with that, and dare I say the trap you’re ‘setting’ whether deliberately or not, is that in modern campaigns it doesn’t have to be true, if you repeat it enough then it becomes ‘fact’, and even defending or disputing just cements the lie as no smoke without fire or similar. £350m for the NHS or more recently £2000 tax bill for all households.

As DPP you won’t get everything right, if indeed you’re involved in getting things right at a granular level anyway. He’s accused of leniency on Saville but wasn’t involved in that. However, it was under his leadership therefore he must be personally soft on pedophiles. Say it often enough and it sticks.

He defended muslim clerics accused of terrorism / incitement. He was a human rights lawyer, sure, but there’s also the cab on the rank rule that means he has to take whatever comes. The only way to avoid being asked to defend ‘undesirables’ (and make note, part of the legal system is ensuring a fair trial is available no matter how abhorrent the crime or accused) would be to not be a human rights lawyer. And how many others then would have their rights violated with no expert barristers. But to the political enemy, the detail doesn’t matter – because the headline ‘STARMER SIDED WITH ABU QATADA!’ is enough to get the response they want.

I see the tories have got the desperate stage of a majority is bad for Labour cos they’ll enact their polices, but it’s good for us to have a majority as we can enact our policies.

On another point, I’m surprised Starmers record as DPP hasnt been put under attack.

It’s been tried, it hasn’t stuck.

check my understanding – are there any opinion polls this week? I have a vague recollection they stop close to the election because they are then at risk of influencing the vote, turn out, etc.

Only one that counts and that’s measurable in hours away now.

PrinceJohn
Full Member
I see the tories have got the desperate stage of a majority is bad for Labour cos they’ll enact their polices, but it’s good for us to have a majority as we can enact our policies.

Epic,eh?

Also saying that Labour will “fix” future elections by letting 16 year olds vote whilst not mentioning all the voter ID bollocks that they have implemented which are biased toward older Tory (now Reform!😂) voters.

alanl
Free Member
“Genuine question, what did he mess up heading the DPP?”

It came up on FB yesterday. I know there were rumours about Rotherham rape gangs, but on closer inspection he didnt have anything to do with that. Jimmy Saville too, thats rather cloudy, CBA looking any further. First article from a search linked below, no doubt there are many more accusations if you have time to search:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/23/keir-starmer-lawyer-dpp

Thanks for the reply. It wasn’t what I expected too be honest though, but like I said, thanks for replying. 👍

theotherjonvFull Member
check my understanding – are there any opinion polls this week? I have a vague recollection they stop close to the election because they are then at risk of influencing the vote, turn out, etc.

Only one that counts and that’s measurable in hours away now.

I think theres some due to be published & updating of MRPs etc

The stupid fake market stuff in England wastes 10% of the NHS budget – Scotland does not have this and admin costs are half! 10% of budget compared to 20% in England

The Landsley redisorganisation was abandoned in 2019 with the NHS Plan (which gave workarounds to support cooperation), fully washed away with the 2022 bill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_Care_Act_2022 .

Stuff that was true 10 years ago has not been true for quite a while.

Also, Streeting corrupt? How so? His office gets funding from some venture capital guy,, whilst he’s said the private sector can help shorten some waiting lists (which it is already doing and I personally think there’s limited scope for it to do much more, but hey ) Whatever, this is all open. You may not like it but that doesn’t make Streeting corrupt. Is there something else you know, or is it just another feeling?

alanl
On another point, I’m surprised Starmers record as DPP hasnt been put under attack. There is plenty of ammunition there

A bit tricky to credibly criticise him for his work as DPP considering David Cameron gave him a knighthood for it!  Obviously doesn’t stop the more crazy arms of the UK political scene trying.

check my understanding – are there any opinion polls this week? I have a vague recollection they stop close to the election because they are then at risk of influencing the vote, turn out, etc.

There are usually polls right up until the day, but then not polls (published) on the day until the vote closes.

They can’t publish exit polls until the vote ends. Opinion polls are still allowed I think. Might be wrong on that though

On another point, I’m surprised Starmers record as DPP hasnt been put under attack. There is plenty of ammunition there, but I havent heard anything about it, maybe the tories have more skeletons in their cupboard than Starmer does?

The problem is, it’s all bollocks. So best to rely on it being spread on Social Media, rather than raising it in interviews where it can be quickly and simply challenged for the blatant bollocks that it is by any journalist. It’s all such bollocks that even journalists who lean right and would like to give Conservatives an easier ride wouldn’t avoid pointing at the obvious bollocks… like doing an interview with an actual bollock hanging out of your shorts and expecting no-one to point it out.

I see the Tories use of their made-up nonsense ‘Supermajority’, which Sunak has been endlessly repeating, is going well…

Ok, this is the absolute chef's kiss moment of this GE campaign.

New polling shows that repeated Tory warnings of a Labour supermajority have made people… more likely to vote Labour (by 2-to-1 vs more likely to vote Tory).

Glorious.https://t.co/x0p8LBNDWM pic.twitter.com/4QDYFYgMIx

— Edwin Hayward (@edwinhayward) June 29, 2024

The Landsley redisorganisation was abandoned in 2019 with the NHS Plan (which gave workarounds to support cooperation), fully washed away with the 2022 bill

The multiple extra layers of bureaucracy are still there.  Not as bad but still there IIRC  Several stages that just do not exist in Scotland.

Also, Streeting corrupt? How so? His office gets funding from some venture capital guy,, whilst he’s said the private sector can help shorten some waiting lists

he has taken huge sums from private medical interests and is insisting on further privatization – the private sector cannot help bring waiting lists down – they now have their own waiting lists and are at full capacity.  He has been told many times by healthcare professionals that using the private sector will not help and his reply is to say he will pick fights with the professionals.  Private helthcare is more expensive for worse outcomes.  His ideas will make things worse not better.

Bought and paid for.

the private sector … now have their own waiting lists and are at full capacity

Again, what’s the source for that? It hasn’t been my (totally anecdotal) experience having been provided a bunch of medical services through the private sector over the last year.

(I’m not, by any means, disagreeing with the idea that the NHS should be the primary and best provider of healthcare that’s free at the point of use).

Personal experience.  I and others in my family have had to resort to private healthcare.  Mother had a 3 month wait for private hip replacement.  Its been reported in the press as well

Of course they are nothing like the NHS waiting lists but the private sector simply does not have the capacity to make any real impact on NHS waiting lists.  Of course they can increase capacity – by taking staff from the NHS

Streetings “solutions” will make the situation worse not better as it costs more to use private than NHS.  He is willing to go against professional advice and knowledge.  He has said he will fight with the professionals over this.

Private healthcare interests are not giving him this money for nothing.