UK Election!

 Surely if the bar has to be very high for killing our own people it should be the same for others?

In theory the State/International law does require pretty high standards of militaries, and their conduct with regards to civilian deaths and restricting the sorts of weaponry that can be used especially from the Liberal Democracies and;

[handwavey] if you consider the long stretch of history then I think you could argue that that’s largely the case [/handwavey]

But specific cases will always always get through, and regardless of how accurate say; the bombs dropped by an F16 are now in comparison to just opening the doors of a Lancaster and hoping for the best, then war will always kill innocents.  I think you could make the argument that in “peace-time” the state shouldn’t be actively adding to death count.

Another thing about the death penalty is that it doesn’t broadly seem to be a good deterrent – murder rates in US states that use the death penalty are generally higher than those that don’t. And yeah, miscarriages of justice do happen.

One thing that always confuses me about the death penalty debate is that liberals get all worked up about ‘the state’ killing its citizens, but don’t seem to have a problem with the very same state killing the citizens of other countries

Big diversion from the main point but:

You are now into the moral concept of a “just” war ( ie justifiable)  Its a really difficult concept.

What’s a “liberal”, YOUR definition?

I’m sure you can work it out, but for the avoidance of any further pendatry, lets just replace ‘liberal’ with ‘people’. Why do people get very worked up about the death penalty and oppose it on the grounds that the state shouldn’t kill it’s own citizens (which I agree with BTW) yet don’t seem to apply the same high principles and standards to the citizens of other countries?

I guess this is why many people do support the death penalty. They can probably see the inherent hypocrisy in the arguments against it. Why do we value the lives of UK murderers, peadophiles and rapists (for example) over an innocent civilian in somewhere like Syria, Iraq or Afganistan? I think if you asked most people who they would prefer to be killed the answer would be pretty obvious.

Who are these “people”?

I’m sure there’s an overlap in the Venn diagram, but I suspect there’s more overlap in the pro-capital punishment and pro-war circles.

Who are these “people”?

FGS it’s obvious. The people who oppose the death penalty.

FGS it’s obvious. The people who oppose the death penalty.

But are also pro-war?

This debate about hypocrisy on the death penalty probably belongs somewhere other than on the UK election thread, and ideally once a non-hypothetical hypocrite has actually been identified…

This debate about hypocrisy on the death penalty probably belongs somewhere other than on the UK election thread

I’m inclined to agree. Don’t even know how it came up. Was someone having a rant about gammons or something?

I believe its @cougar fault.

#blamecougar

I’m pretty sure it is illegal for the military to execute someone in their custody too.

🤷‍♂️

I just thought I’d pop in to this thread and catch up.

How the hell have you got on to the death penalty?

It’s everyone ok today?

What else to talk about while we wait for FGF?

How the hell have you got on to the death penalty?

It’s a bit quiet on the campaign front. Although it was fun watching Starmer spluttering when confronted by a raging TERF on the 5live phonein this morning. I’m always amazed that with everything that’s going on in this country one of the prominent issues that keeps coming up is whether a woman can have a penis or not and which toilets they should use. It’s truly mindboggling. 🤷‍♂️

Its been bafffling me too. The amount of people this is likely to effect is so absolutely miniscule that a lot of the time they’re surely talking about situations that are entirely hypothetical?

Good grief. The death penalty and war are completely different concepts. Stop being silly.

The death penalty and war are completely different concepts.

State sponsored killing, so not that different from a moral perspective. Anyway we’re not doing that any more. :-)

Keep up Molls. We’re on to which toilets you should use if you’ve still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress? Apparently its a very pressing electoral issue

Stop being silly.

The death penalty and war are completely different concepts.

Yeah, it’s okay to say that but if you surrender to Labour, Starmer’s death robots will come and kill you in your sleep. That’s an awful way to die especially after you’ve paid all that extra Labour tax.

Good to see JC is a short head lead in the Islington race, not quite ready for the knacker’s yard.

We’re on to which toilets you should use if you’ve still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress?

It’s an important issue. I inadvertently offended a couple of people in a Manchester hipster pub recently after I walked into the toilets and apologised when I saw two women and assumed I’d walked into the ladies by mistake. Imagine my horror when I then had to go back in to the ‘toilets with urinals’ and hang my head in shame as I had clearly misgendered two trans men who had chosen to use the mens toilets.

Stop being silly.

Abso-bleedin-lutely.

We take being sensible so seriously in this country that we created a Minister For Common Sense. That’s how seriously we take it.

It is actually like living in a Monty Python sketch or a Kafka novel sometimes.

🤡🇬🇧🤡🇬🇧

We’re on to which toilets you should use if you’ve still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress?

We need a way of telling.  We will need attendants on every public toilet to conduct a physical exam on entry.  If it’s the toilets in say, a coffee shop, the barista will have to conduct the search. Clearly this is not a long term solution so we will need a technological solution – some sort of 3d body scanner aimed at everyone’s genitals. These could be incorporated into normal CCTV so the movements of trans people can be tracked at all times.  Also AI trained to detect if those with balls are dressed as men or women.  That should come under a few billion a year.

I always thought places with the death penalty have higher crime rates because criminals just think “**** it! If I’m going to die I might as well go wild”!

How would you tell the difference between a Starmer death robot and just the normal Starmer?

Had a another load of election leaflets this morning – one from the Women’s Party totally focussed on the trans issue, one from the Tories (which seems to minimise the Conservative Party logo and is a waste of paper as the chance of them winning in my constituency is less than zero) and had two leaflets from the Greens which adds to the growing pile of paper they have sent in the past few weeks (well into double figures), much of which is a bit underhand using graphics and colours which are a copy of Labour’s, as they try to unseat a fantastic constituency Labour MP who was first elected 9 years ago.

I always thought places with the death penalty have higher crime rates because criminals just think “**** it! If I’m going to die I might as well go wild”!

In the case of the US enshrining the right of people to go about their daily lives toting the kind of firepower that would make a WW1 platoon jealous – is probably a contributing factor.

In the case of the US enshrining the right of people to go about their daily lives toting the kind of firepower that would make a WW1 platoon jealous – is probably a contributing factor.

They should incentivise potential murderers to not kill people by promising that they won’t go to prison if they refrain.

I had a leaflet from the Tories last week, and I think posted through the door just so that can say that they did.  My constituency’s so Labour I was genuinely surprised that they could be bothered.  Couldn’t tell you any more than that, it went unread into the recycling.

I know the comments are tongue in cheek, I can live with that. But while it may be a fringe issue for most, when I look at what a Tory and/or Reform admin would likely do next, it makes it a pretty big one for us – a very high stakes week ahead. Even if labour’s position is unclear and starmer can be tied in knots over definitions (can’t we all,  I’m dad to a trans son and I can’t get a definition that covers all situations, I’d have to write an essay) – I have to believe they are far more likely to pass the ‘just be kind’ test.

While the antitrans always seem to focus on what toilet a person with cobblers should use, is it the same answer for a person without. Why aren’t they up in arms over their choices. Are we compelled to use the ladies with you?

I’m sure you can work it out, but for the avoidance of any further pendatry, lets just replace ‘liberal’ with ‘people’.

No, let’s not – YOU used the word on purpose.

What is a “liberal” in your eyes, in the context you used the word?

No, let’s not – YOU used the word on purpose.

I assure you that you’re seeking offence where none is intended. It’s pretty obvious what liberal means, and it’s pretty obvious that opposition to the death penalty is very much a liberal cause celebre. I don’t know many reactionaries or conservatives who are passionate about their opposition to the death penalty. Quite the opposite in fact.

Lighten up! It’s nearly the weekend, only a couple of hours to go before we can go down the pub. :-)

From Cold War Steve on Twitter

^ the turd puddle is the icing on a very funny cake…

No data on snakebites…….or Guiness 0.0. Not sure of correlation w STW demographic

The Tories have really got the Sherry constituency nailed.

There’s no room for racists in Reform.

Do they have a one in / one out policy?

Just got this through the door from the Tories. We’ve been getting a constant stream of their election bumph for weeks now.

I’m still mystified at them going to all this expense in a seat they are 100% guaranteed to lose, though to be fair this one seems to be more centred on damage limitation

The Tories have really got the Sherry constituency nailed.

Would be interesting to see the subgroup-analysis by age and gender – sherry will surely be over 70s. and VK under 25s?  Ales – white male and stale (us lot on STW😉) Pimms a bit of an outlier surely

I had the same come through yesterday, thought it was a great advert for Labour