the Russians have been doping? Is that news?

the Russians have been doping? Is that news?

Sick athletes have applied for medical treatments they need and gone through a formal and regulated approval process run by WADA, the UCI, CADF and been granted permission. They’ve done nothing wrong. Is that news?

It’s about time that WADA stopped sitting on its hands and stood up and apologised for its shocking online security, to the athletes who are being hounded by the media for doing nothing wrong or illegal and, above all, stood up for the robustness of its own processes.

If you genuinely believe that athletes have been using TUEs to obtain performance enhancing drugs, then there must be something badly wrong with the system that approves those applications. But as far as I can see, WADA just sits there and says pretty much nothing.

Would the most important potentially important benefit be in reducing inflammation caused by the day in/day out attritional riding in a long stage race?

Certainly the effects are known to last a week or more in patients, which could be useful in keeping joint aches at bay and assist recovery well into a grand tour.

I agree that the athletes have not done anything wrong under the letter of the law, but perhaps the authorities need to look at some of these medications and decide whether a corticosteroid jab is appropriate for allergic rhinitis.

Not really but you are clutching at straws with TUEs and ignoring the massive elephant in the room which is slowly releasing you the information that folk legitimately got TUEs.

We knew that anyway and its not cheating as they have exemptions.

We could discuss this process if you like as we ignore the big state sponsored cheating the leak is designed to get us to ignore.

I don’t think anybody is questioning or ignoring the stated sponsored doping in Russia.

We are, however, questioning the legitimacy of the TUEs though. It’s historic misuse is also documented, so don’t go ignoring that. Legalised doping is an accurate enough description. And ‘ignoring’ Russian misdeeds has absolutely nothing to do with it (unless they have a slew of TUEs too). You can keep banging on about if you want but it doesn’t stop us considering that maybe other countries aren’t exactly whiter than white. Whether it’s individuals who are permitted to cheat, or whole organisations, the results are similar. Dopers.

State sponsored doping takes many forms and has not been limited to just Russia.

Whether it’s individuals who are permitted to cheat, or whole organisations, the results are similar. Dopers.

So what do you think should be done? Ban TUEs? Change the criteria for approving them? Revise the list of permissible treatments under TUEs?

The trouble is, if you start off from the binary position that cheating is endemic in professional cycling and no-one is innocent then you end up with a scenario where instead of the cycling organisations and teams working to make the sport as clean as possible, they spend time and energy defending pretty much anything they do. Because under that sort of black and white thinking, no amount of transparency or scrutiny or testing is ever enough. Because they are automatically guilty.

That’s not the same thing as saying everyone is blameless, because that’s also clearly not true, but there’s a sort of irrational hysteria around TUEs that they probably don’t merit.

The reason that systematised Russian state doping is being mentioned is not because it proves that the TUE system is perfect, but because it puts it in some sort of perspective. What’s a shame is that the media is effectively dancing to the tune of a bunch of anonymous hackers with its own agenda rather than actually looking at TUEs objectively.

We are, however, questioning the legitimacy of the TUEs though. It’s historic misuse is also documented, so don’t go ignoring that.

You’re not ‘questioning’ you’re asserting, you’ve already made your mind up, no? And what happened in the past may not be the same as what’s happening now. And in any case, if the system is questionable, who’s at fault? You’d hope that it would be designed to make misuse of TUEs impossible. If it doesn’t, then clearly it needs looking at.

But here’s the thing, none of the media reports I’ve seen have questioned WADA and the UCI’s administration of that system, instead they’d rather smear teams and athletes who’ve abided by TUE rules and regulations. If the system’s broken, something should be done about it. And if it’s not, WADA needs to step up and say so as well as sorting out their security so that athlete’s private records aren’t released randomly to the media.

That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Just asserting that ‘they’re all dopers’ on the other hand, because they always have been is maybe a little simplistic. Are TUEs broken? I don’t know. You don’t know. But no-one seems particularly interested in standing up for the process or finding out.

Badly Wired Dog wins today’s voice of reason award.

Indeed they do

Oh, and I’d just like to echo the comments above that there’s not much medical evidence being thrown around for/against corticosteriods as PEDs. Whilst Millar’s and Jaskche’s comments are very persuasive, they’re clearly from a subjective point of view.

So what do you think should be done? Ban TUEs? Change the criteria for approving them? Revise the list of permissible treatments under TUEs?

– Yeah

The trouble is, if you start off from the binary position that cheating wais endemic in professional cycling

This where we were only very recently, Landis spilled his guts about LA and microdosing

you end up with a scenariosituation where instead of the cycling organisations and teams working to make the sport as clean as possible, they spend time and energy defending pretty much anything they do

or 2009/2012 😉 as I call it

That’s not the same thing as saying everyone is blameless, because that’s also clearly not true,

Never said everyone, I’ve been pretty specific.

there’s a sort of irrational hysteria around TUEs that they probably don’t merit.

or maybe it is a way of legalising doping in which the horse has bolted.

You’re not ‘questioning’ you’re asserting, you’ve already made your mind up, no?

No, I’m questioning specifically in this Wiggins TUEs on the basis that two convicted dopers have gone, “yeah this is what we did…”

And what happened in the past may not be the same as what’s happening now. And in any case, if the system is questionable, who’s at fault? You’d hope that it would be designed to make misuse of TUEs impossible. If it doesn’t, then clearly it needs looking at.

I’m in general agreement with this

The problem is that the system was clearly not up to scratch (see LA, Landis, Hamilton revelations) and not fit for purpose. I saw the UCI defending LA and not treating it with any kind of sense of morality. Cookson hasn’t exactly upturned the applecart.

That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Just asserting that ‘they’re all dopers’ on the other hand, because they always have been is maybe a little simplistic. Are TUEs broken? I don’t know. You don’t know. But no-one seems particularly interested in standing up for the process or finding out.

I’ve never said they are all dopers, I’ve questioned whether some are as I can’t explain their transformations by any other rational means (bearing in mind the revelations previously cited). The UCI and WADA don’t seem to be addressing the issues (its their job). Ashenden admitted that WADA was clueless to microdosing until Landis told them how it was done! He left because of the gagging clauses in his contract. hardly transparent…

However, all this said, thanks for engaging in rational debate BWD (and addressing the issues full on). I understand your point of view (and frustration) it’s just I’ve personally stopped giving cycling organisations the benefit of the doubt…

Its not the bad old days, but its not the bright new future either.

Wiggo’s going on Andrew Marr on Sunday to give his side of the story.

He’s taking some stick for not talking to a cycling journalist, who might be able to offer more pertinent questions.

Going by past history, I’d say cycling journalists are less likely to ask pertinent questions. Very few of them are really digging into things in a rigorous, evidence backed manner.

No reason why Andrew Marr can’t do a good job if he does his homework.

Good point kcr, cycling journalists have been accused of being complicit in the omerta as, for example, accusing LA of doping was a quick way to not getting an interview (cf Paul Kimmage).

David Walsh might have at thing or 2 to say about complicity..

David Walsh might have at thing or 2 to say about complicity..

😉

Spartacus and Nino in the latest ‘hack’

Oh and Steve Cummings.

No reason why Andrew Marr can’t do a good job if he does his homework.

Absolutely. Any gripes may be because Wiggo’s ignored all their requests for comments and gone to the BBC.

Oh and Steve Cummings.

He was allowed to use an asthma inhaler for 12 months back in 2008.

How does he sleep at night?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/bradley-wiggins-doping-rules-fancy-bears-tues

How does he sleep at night?

Soundly, because he’s treated his asthma.

So when was the last thread or post about that then?

Whilst I’ve read this thread and find it all very interesting I’m going to keep my opinions on the TUE information released to myself, because to comment on it is dancing to the tune of the state sponsored Russian hackers. They must be pissing themselves at just how successful they’ve been – do you think they’ll all be getting holiday apartments in Sochi as a reward?

Anyway, have they released the names of any Russian cyclists involved in the state sponsored doping programme?

Bradley just had a going over on Newsnight.

How does he sleep at night?

In a hypoxic altitude tent.

As the former slipstream doctor said Bradley is at the bottom of the heap in culpability for this, the doctors in the various organisations that signed off on the injections should be up first

Oh no it’s all falling to bits. Or is it?
Having competed in just about every discipline in cycling. I did my best. I went to bed early. Over trained. Ate lots. I raced. Did my best. Did OK. Of course there is always some guy who wins everything.
Fast forward 15 years. And realise how naive I was.
Can this still be going on? Really?

Can this still be going on? Really?

It is unbelievable that it is still going on in one way or another

Oh well. Watch this space and all that.
Joy!

So when was the last thread or post about that then?

Oh, about the same time there was one praising the Russians for their clean, ethical and sportsmanlike performance. The cultural bias always said they were a bunch of cheating ****. Let’s face it, nobody was exactly surprised were they? There really isn’t anything to discuss.

I’m going to keep my opinions on the TUE information released to myself, because to comment on it is dancing to the tune of the state sponsored Russian hackers.

Wow, you stick it to the MAN….

There are some people (me for example) who have been uneasy at how readily the cycling is clean now mantra took sway with Sky (and Garmin) held up as the shining examples. I thought it was bullshit then. Looking increasingly like marginal gains = same old soap…

It is unbelievable that it is still going on in one way or another

Honestly? Sadly it’s really not. It’s always gone on (one way or another).

I mean, in all honesty, what did people think when Vinokurov won the 2012 Olympic road race, a victory for clean cycling?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/bradley-wiggins-former-doctor-questions-use-banned-steroid

The shits hitting the fan now. Wonder whether Lance is secretly laughing to himself.

WADA publish a cemprehensive list of banned substances and procedures. As far as I’m concerned an althlete can do anything they like as long as it’s not on that list. In fact I’d expect a professional athlete to try and gain an advantage by any legal means possible.

As for TUEs; if the UCI approve your TUE then go for it as far as I’m concerned. If they are approving things they shouldn’t be, that’s a question for the UCI not the athlete.

WADA publish a cemprehensive list of banned substances and procedures. As far as I’m concerned an althlete can do anything they like as long as it’s not on that list. In fact I’d expect a professional athlete to try and gain an advantage by any legal means possible.

As for TUEs; if the UCI approve your TUE then go for it as far as I’m concerned. If they are approving things they shouldn’t be, that’s a question for the UCI not the athlete.

/Thread

A man got to have a code.

If it is really that much of an advantage why didn’t sky get a Tue for Froome in 2013 onwards?

WADA publish a cemprehensive list of banned substances and procedures. As far as I’m concerned an althlete can do anything they like as long as it’s not on that list. In fact I’d expect a professional athlete to try and gain an advantage by any legal means possible.

As for TUEs; if the UCI approve your TUE then go for it as far as I’m concerned. If they are approving things they shouldn’t be, that’s a question for the UCI not the athlete.

Giving the nature of the sport, it’s inevitable that all legal avenues will be explored, and if the UCI are going to approve it, it can be expected. They should definitely be answering questions on it.

But, given the super clean claims by Sky/Bradley Wiggins….it’s disappointing.

The Telegraph has scooped Andrew Marr with his own show transcript.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/25/sir-bradleywigginss-tue-use-stinks-says-rival-as-briton-tells-an/

Proper dog ate my homework stuff from Wiggo. Big boys made me do it. Wasn’t me who said I was clean, it was the ghost writer of my autobiography. Cringe.

The drug Triamcinolone is a relatively weak corticosteroid. The press are overblowing its strength. If athletes think it ‘strong’, well there are much stronger corticosteroid injections available. Most would be stronger. Dexamethasone is 8 times stronger for instance and lasts days not weeks.

There is a trade off between strength and duration of action with cortcosteroid injections. This is a (relatively very) weak one.

I’m not a doctor but we use similar drugs in the veterinary field all the time, and this would be regarded as suitable for long term allergies as it’s ‘strong enough’ for asthma or skin allergies and whilst having the longest duration of action (a few weeks).

It’s not all good either, corticosteroids cause muscle weakness, increase abdominal fat and increase appetite, make you more prone to infections, or skin infections from cuts and increase risk of diabetes.

I can imagine that breathing in alot of allergens and the essential nature of having a functioning respiratory system, it would not be unreasonable for someone with asthma to need treating before an event.

That this was done, all correctly as far as I can see to the book, would indicate there is nothing to see here.

would indicate there is nothing to see here.

So why the nonsense about not having had any injections? Oversight? Memory lapse?

Nothing to see here?

Should the UCI have Disqualified Armstrong in 1999?

Nah, your right….

The main point of the article you have linked to is that Armstrong broke the rules by not declaring his (claimed) therapeutic use of corticosteroid when he was tested; i.e. even if he had a valid TUE, he was required to declare the treatment at each test. I don’t see the relevance of that to Bradley Wiggins’ situation?

Does anyone have any science based evidence for how Triamcinolone would enhance performance? That would seem to be an obvious question to ask in this situation, but I haven’t seen anyone answer it convincingly. Even the cycling doctors saying that Wiggins looks suspicious don’t seem to have explained how he was getting an advantage with this stuff. From what I’ve read, it’s a catabolic steroid which consumes fat and muscle, often leaving a large divot at the injection site and has a number of negative possible side effects. So how would it actually make you perform better?

Is anyone genuinely surprised? A team can ride on the front tour after tour, preventing any other team attacking and they are all on Weetabix and water.