When I first rode the Surrey hills 12(!) years ago it was popular. On a recent visit I was gobsmacked. How do the Peaslake locals cope with the amount of riders?! So I wouldn’t mourn the loss of unofficial trails too much. The digging needs to stop full stop if its unofficial.

Especially if someone hurts themself on a dugout/changed trail – the argument ‘you should walk it/spot it before/have the skills don’t wash.

Mags like MBR mbuk etc seem to run bi-monthly trail features on the Surrey Hills. Great for their haymarket or whatever sales but too much pressure on a delicate balance with locals IMO.

^^ that’s because they are the ones digging illegally… They really should know better

There would be less bikers in Peaslake if the shop stopped baking cheese straws.

Yes it’s a busy place with a lot of people using it for all kinds of recreation on a daily basis. This is no bad thing. How much money do you think is spent by mountain bikers alone in the local shop, pub and surrounding areas?. I think for all the downsides the locals would agree that it keeps local businesses alive and vibrant.

As for trails it needs more work, more legal trails for all abilities. Make them official, get them way marked and graded. Volunteer groups to maintain them. Focus on what you can do in the areas you can, try and win over hearts and minds of the locals…or am I day dreaming?.

I was somewhat relieved when the entry to the Evian bomb hole was smoothed. Shame to lose such a fun trail.

Now I just need to master the bomb hole on SM!

Given the numbers that congregate in the village and at WB CP, I am always amazed at how uncrowded the trails are – even the well known ones. As for runs like SM, I have never seen anyone on there even at weekends which makes me feel nervous about screwing up the bomb hole and no one being around

I think for all the downsides the locals would agree that it keeps local businesses alive and vibrant.

Unless it’s changed, sadly a lot of locals think the pub and shop would exist quite happily without mountain bikers. That said, I’ve never set foot in the pub whilst there on the bike but would stop whenever I passed the shop no matter what the form of transport.

Sneaky trails are sneaky trails, you expect them to vanish. Is no consolation to the builders but it’s inevitable.

I suspect the pub would now survive without bikers. The food is excellent in both the bar and restaurant. The shop I’m not so sure although there’s quite a lot of roadies that use it as a stop.

Dan milners Instagram comment seems to take a bit of a swipe at the landowner which seems a touch pathetic. ……….” Milestone jumps destroyed because they annoyed one very fortunate wealthy individual.”

He has few fans among the locals…

He cares (the right word?) alot about preserving riders long-term access to the area

Glad I got a last ride of Evian on Sunday then! Shame as I thought it had survived since Area51 and others had already been destroyed by then but I can understand the issue with the trails being illegal. Only just found Secret Santa this past weekend and was hoping to revisit soon but guess we should give that area a miss in general to help the situation settle down.

The pub survives on the posh locals paying for expensive meals and having events there. The bikers are a side trade. Though at least a little more welcome than in the past.

daver27 – Member
^^ that’s because they are the ones digging illegally… They really should know better

Indeed. There’s a reason Evian is also known as MBR 😉

hora – Member
He cares (the right word?) alot about preserving riders long-term access to the area

Not the right way to go about it though. If you want that, then has to be approved (and sanitised) trails.

Not knocking the trails though. I much prefer the cheeky stuff, but illegal dig then expect them to go.

It’s a shame and I regret the loss of the pixies’ efforts, but those of us who have been knocking around a few years (..decades) have seen this cycle before, it’ll work out.

What goes down comes up and it’s near impossible to police too.

Dare I even say it, but Winterfold’s not the best riding in the area anyway. Shhhhhhhhh.

It’s a shame those trails are gone, and good on Howard for reporting responsibly.

A couple of things*:

1) Landowners aren’t worried about legal precedent, they’re worried about the cost and complexity of fighting what might be an entirely vexatious case. And it’s usually not the cyclist / walker / horserider suing, by the way – it’s the insurance company they or their employer claim from because they can’t work. The Forestry Commission self insures as a government organisation, and theoretically, they should be pretty chilled out about liability at grass roots level, but they aren’t. Even the threat of a court case will have key workers – administrators and foresters – working for months on gathering evidence and doing court related admin when they could be maintaining forest or helping, say, volunteer trailbuilders.

2) Build something that’s likely to cause injury, and the landowner or manager will be obliged to level it. Those of you who have ridden this area for years will remember the Ewok Village and the Coffin Drop. If it looks fricking dangerous to a layman (or a factor, or a land manager, or a landowner) and they’ve found out someone has splashed themselves all over that trail feature, it’s going to go – no two ways about it. In the case of the Coffin Drop, the poor chap that crashed was paralysed (and, as far as I know, still is a paraplegic) – I challenge anyone in the situation that landowner found themselves in to not close that feature down.

3) If you look *carefully* at the sanctioned stuff that’s been built with the agreement and assistance of the National Trust, Hurtwood Control, Forestry Commission, CTC and others, it’s built to a very exacting standard, and contains interesting features that, if you know what you’re doing and are a capable rider, are possible to ride enthusiastically. A lovely example of this is that video of a certain pro riding SL2. Few mortals could do what he’s doing, and it’s not just an issue of massive balls, but also massive technical chops. The point is: if you’re not that quick or that good or that experienced, it’s still a challenge to ride, but it’s likely to be a lot less lethal, too.

As said above, this is a cycle, it’s been ’round before, and every time, people learn from it. The learning is this: build stuff that’s big, big, big without the landowner’s consent and approval,and they’ll be obliged, sooner or later, to steamroller it – whether they want to or not.

* Increasingly wizened trail building geezer, involved in shoveling and committee work around a few of the sanctioned trails ’round these parts, plus third junior assistant spade holder on a few of the early ’00s Dragon DH tracks in South Wales. I’ve made these points a few times, but sometimes it bears repeating. I remember when it was all fields etc.

A surprisingly thoughtful set of comments on this thread. But something has gone unsaid. There’s a type of rider that has become prevalent in this far corner of the Hurtwood that doesn’t understand the issue of consideration for others: others who own land, others who want quiet enjoyment of the countryside (a right given by and expressed in the Hurtwood Constitution), etc. They have taken a “fu22k em” rebelious attitude, inspired by a completely heedless tattooed individual they have made into an aspirational hero. This is the payback, and they’ve gone too far. It used to be a network of discrete trails, part on deer tracks and part on existing tracks, that we all enjoyed reasonably discretely, and landowners (mostly) turned a “blind eye” to our activity. But in order to swank off to his MBR mates, they’ve created a negative attitude in the landowners, that in the end helps nobody. Serious research a year ago showed that white van driver with his staffy, tattoos and chains is primarily determined in this mold by an innate characteristic that distinguishes him from others, a “distinct lack of ability to consider others and the consequences of his actions”. Say no more.
Time for this tribe of “yeah matey” disciples to leave, or learn to be more considerate. With the changes in ownership taking place with more sales of the Hurtwood, the future may not be so tolerant.

@tmh, the key thing is to tell everyone you rode Evian with complete confidence in the full knowledge that you’ll never be asked to “go on, show us then” plus I wouldn’t ride it on those clown wheels either 😉

Alps long weekend in 2016, you’ll never again think a Surrey Hills bomb hole is anything but the merest dimple.

Ouch! 😀

My sarcastic intent didn’t come across in my last post. He doesn’t care about long-term. Also from other poster comments why can’t he quieten it as the impact long-term will be?…

A lot of the Surrey Hills are access land which means walkers and bikers can go where they want. A walker has just as much right to walk up a “trail” as a biker has to ride down it.

Not so. Access land extends rights to walkers, runners and climbers only.

He cares (the right word?) alot about preserving riders long-term access to the area

No he doesn’t! He’d ban everyone from his land if he could. Complete opposite to the Hurtwood!

restandbethankfull

Ballsh1t – You have everything to be thankful for what Dave has brought to the Surrey Hills. Unless you were happy riding Yoghurt Pots on repeat..

Anyway he’s not been building up that way for years…

Posh locals- these will be the polite, intelligent and engaging ones that I’ve met then. Not the new money, arrogant entitlement riders who flock down from London every weekend.

Please don’t say anything bad about thel ocals. They are probably sick of the swams of people now that arent polite back. This has been going on for years.

>Ballsh1t – Unless you were happy riding Yoghurt Pots on repeat

Agree.

Even if there were no ‘features’, there would be injuries, unless you were to route all trails away from trees and remove every root.

Unofficial trails will exist wherever there are mountain bikers, we only have what we have because of some others pushing the boundaries.

Fine line that.

McAllister is hardly known for his welcoming and progressive attitude though, I doubt any injury risk was really a contributory factor.

Plenty of people get injured riding on the road, so not sure about the ‘danger’ of trails really.

A lot of the Surrey Hills are access land which means walkers and bikers can go where they want

as far as i am aware ‘access land’ does not give rights to bikers that are as extensive as those granted to walkers. we share the same rights of access as horseriders – ie we’re confined to specified tracks/access roads.

The Forestry Commission self insures as a government organisation, and theoretically, they should be pretty chilled out about liability at grass roots level, but they aren’t. Even the threat of a court case will have key workers – administrators and foresters – working for months on gathering evidence and doing court related admin

I’ve had a ranger I’ve known for some years, and who has been in the Commision for some years longer than I’ve known him, tell me that no case has ever been brought against the FC in any respect to trails/riding.

Pook – Member
A lot of the Surrey Hills are access land which means walkers and bikers can go where they want. A walker has just as much right to walk up a “trail” as a biker has to ride down it.
Not so. Access land extends rights to walkers, runners and climbers only.

I’ve had a ranger I’ve known for some years, and who has been in the Commision for some years longer than I’ve known him, tell me that no case has ever been brought against the FC in any respect to trails/riding.

I can state categorically that I know that to be incorrect, in fact I know of at least one case brought in the last couple of years, which was only unsuccessful because the FC were able to demonstrate an extensive and effective inspection and management regime, with laid out protocols stating how trails would be dealt with. I also know for sure of other landowners without that regime who have had to pay out.

So Winterfold is pretty much down to one trail now? Shame about evian it was fun..

I’d always assumed that the big jump line dh from Evian (milestone?), being such a work of engineering, was officially tolerated or sanctioned.

Del – Member

I’ve had a ranger I’ve known for some years, and who has been in the Commision for some years longer than I’ve known him, tell me that no case has ever been brought against the FC in any respect to trails/riding.

Definitely not true sadly. Whether any of them have been succesful I don’t know but even nuisance cases are a… well, nuisance.

ninfan, good to know. any more info?
if not location etc. structures?

Pook – Member
Not so. Access land extends rights to walkers, runners and climbers only.

Not so with The Hurtwood. The Deed of Dedication on The Hurtwood allows all, except where otherwise signposted, including mountain bikes.

“In 2000, the CROW (Countryside & Rights of Way) Act gave everyone the legal right to walk throughout common land – but The Hurtwood dedication goes further. It gives people permission to ride over The Hurtwood, either on horseback or on bicycle – and in recent years mountain bikers have become some of our most active supporters.”

http://friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/dedication

This is fairly unique and overrides normal RoW. In fact a RoW in general are just a base point. Land owners are entitled to allow access and often do even where access is not granted by law through a public RoW. An argument you can often present to people when riding on a footpath. How do they know the land owner does not like you riding there?

It’s just the natural cycle of things which aren’t official, c’est la vie.

Forestry work will be done in a few weeks, some good souls will start clearing (most probably going to go up there and do some), things will evolve slightly into something better than ever.

I’m really happy with the timing though, just going into constant slop, i wouldn’t be riding them anyway so really don’t care. I’ll be putting work in so it’s all restored for spring though.

If people just go and start digging again it’ll just piss off the land owner even more and the situation gets no better. He (Foster as I understand it, not Jim) has said he’s open to bikes and there has been suggestions he would be happy for formal trails, but is not happy at all with illegal digging.

This is a time where various trail groups can work with him and the upcoming new owners of the other areas to work on an agreed solution that all would be happy with.

Remember, when it comes to The Hurtwood mountain bikers are a valuable asset. Money into the village shops, many are members of Friends of Hurtwood and donate much needed funds to keep then place open for all, many are also walkers or even horse riders.

Hoping to go this weekend – shame to miss my favourite trail (Evian) – still time to session the SM bombhole perhaps?

Either that or play on the hidden stuff 10 miles to the west!

Pook – Member
Not so. Access land extends rights to walkers, runners and climbers only.
Not so with The Hurtwood. The Deed of Dedication on The Hurtwood allows all, except where otherwise signposted, including mountain bikes.

“In 2000, the CROW (Countryside & Rights of Way) Act gave everyone the legal right to walk throughout common land – but The Hurtwood dedication goes further. It gives people permission to ride over The Hurtwood, either on horseback or on bicycle – and in recent years mountain bikers have become some of our most active supporters.”

http://friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/dedication

This is fairly unique and overrides normal RoW. In fact a RoW in general are just a base point. Land owners are entitled to allow access and often do even where access is not granted by law through a public RoW. An argument you can often present to people when riding on a footpath. How do they know the land owner does not like you riding there?

Just to explain, that (as so often) It’s a little more complex than that

The land on the Hurtwood is registered common land, as such it would, ordinarily, be covered by 2000 CROW access rights, which would enshrine in law an irrevocable right to access on foot, subject to a number of scheduled restrictions. It would also be possible for a landowner to dedicate permanent and irrevocable access rights over and above this right of access on foot, eg for bikes and horses.

However, Hurtwood land is classified as excepted land for the purposes of CROW, since it has pre-existing access rights over and above this by nature of access agreements under the 1949 national parks and access to the countryside act, and a deed of dedication under s193 of the law of property act 1925 (which allows foot and horse access, but in general would technically make cycling on the land a criminal offence were it not for further permission) however this dedication remains revokable so there remains the possibility that access rights could be withdrawn in the future (in fact I believe the deed may also terminate automatically with the sale of the land too) but would then be protected on foot by CROW. Bike access is, I believe by nature of the 1949 NPA access agreement, which could also be ended, and separate access agreements with the friends of the hurtwood, which could also be terminated..

Which goes to show why it remains so important not to act like a dick whilst riding there.

still time to session the SM bombhole perhaps?

Reeeeeally? I find that vastly easier to ride than the bottom bit of Evian, which I never quite got right!

Yes, loved Evian once I realised bomb hole was not a big deal and used to enjoy the bottom section even on the old HT. Only found SM recently and on my own late in the afternoon. And was worried about making a mess of the exit on the bomb home. Didn’t help that on first run there was an ambulance siren in the distance. I would like to see how much air (If any) you get on the exit

I am just being a pussy really !!

SM??? Summer Madness???

Chapeau and thank you to the ‘rich’ people of this area that allow us access. Think of it this way, why bother with the hassle. Would you in their position? I met Handa Bray once, a very inquisitive and nice person. I’ve also met and interacted with other residents from the area- the couple who set up a stall outside their country pile to teach their children about charity (they were selling home made lemonade and other drinks on a hot summers day). I got chatting to them and they didn’t tell me that they’d made ‘x’ on their house sale or his job title like you’d hear in a Chorlton pub in Manchester (cough BBC staff). Anyway I’m tipsy. Good night. I’ll never be rich but I won’t bregudge those that do better. Especially if they still have a thought for their fellow man. Yes there will be the exception but maybe that person is annoyed by his/her experience on their doorstep of their home.

Yes I think so. Nice trail with v scary (almost hidden jump on LHS about half way down) and bomb hole 3/4 of way down. Starts just to the left on one car park.