Do you have a number for the amount of trans people participating in sport as women?

And what about the number of trans people participating as men? I don’t, do you?

You don’t think that as society and attitudes change, treatment becomes more widely available, legislation is brought in and sporting rules changed that this will show an increase in trans people playing sports?

You’re way behind the times, the IOC changed their rules in 2016 to sort this out. Female to male – no restriction, male to female need to be able to demonstrate a testosterone level below a cut off point.

For now, and that’s at olympic level. What about all other levels, including grass roots?

You don’t think that as society and attitudes change, treatment becomes more widely available, legislation is brought in and sporting rules changed will show an increase in trans people playing sports?

Probably, it’s not something I really think about that much. But I’m sure the relevant sporting authorities are thinking about it, so I don’t have to.

Well I like thinking about things, what the consequences are and asking questions around them. I like to be able to do that freely.

It’s not like authorities ever make big mistakes in policy is it?

Well I like thinking about things, what the consequences are and asking questions around them. I like to be able to do that freely.

And you can.

It’s not like autrhorities ever make big mistakes in policy is it?

Doesn’t keep me awake at night, as it’s not something I can influence either way.

And you can.

Think about yes, but discuss? Not so much these days without being accused of something, threats made to your career, even life.

Think about yes, but discuss? Not so much these days without being accused of something, threats made to your career, even life.

It’s so hard when you’re the victim.

The Pilot – Member

I will say though that I think it speaks volumes that here you are, a man (I’m guessing), telling me, a woman, what I was really saying. Speaks volumes.

No. What really is telling, what really does speak volumes is that you believe your gender in some way enhances the validity of your opinion. By stating your gender (which I was completely unaware of and disinterested in) you are attempting to gain high ground that you can’t otherwise reach by the strength of your words alone.

Unless you are talking about a specific biological reality of being a woman as opposed to a man, if you have to qualify a statement with your gender then you can be sure that your statement is factually and intellectually worthless.

If you’d like to construct an argument, or add anything which furthers the debate, as opposed to making gross conflations and brandishing your gender like a badge of superiority I’d be happy to discuss it with you as an equal.

It’s so hard when you’re the victim.

Ah! That old chestnut.

Ah! That old chestnut.

Well what do you want me to do, hold a vigil for you?

Jimjam, your anger and aggression is getting offensive. I’m not interested in discussing anything with you. You make it very plain that you are completely unable to see anything from anybody else’s point of view. You’re all over the place with your views, contradicting yourself, making ridiculous points, utterly humourless, domineering, and going on and on and on.
You also seem to feel the need to appear super intelligent when it is patently obvious that you are anything but.
Come back with what you want. Or don’t. I shall not reply to anything else you have to say. Like I say, odious little man.

Well what do you want me to do, hold a vigil for you?

Don’t worry your pretty little head about unimportant things like free speech and being able to question things you might not agree with. Someone else will let you know what to think. 🙄

Wow!

We have a long way to go, with so many dinosaurs amongst us.

The Pilot – Member

Jimjam, your anger and aggression is getting offensive.

Cite.

I’m not interested in discussing anything with you. You make it very plain that you are completely unable to see anything from anybody else’s point of view. You’re all over the place with your views,

I am unable to see other view points but my views are all over the place?

contradicting yourself, making ridiculous points, utterly humourless, domineering, and going on and on and on.

Back at you.

You also seem to feel the need to appear super intelligent when it is patently obvious that you are anything but.

Cite.

Like I say, odious little man.

So you started off with nothing to say, then started personal insults and when your trump card (being a woman) failed you’re back to personal insults. Bravo.

Don’t worry your pretty little head about unimportant things like free speech and being able to question things you might not agree with. Someone else will let you know what to think.

I’m assuming it wasn’t the state making those death threats?
I’m also assuming you reported them to the police, as such things are a crime, you know, to protect free speech…

I’m a pretty independent thinker, actually, and have my fair share of unpopular opinions, for which I have often been threatened by others, including organs of the state. I don’t go around crying about it though, it’s not dignified. I often make myself feel better by reminding myself that some people have to suffer such threats to their life and safety based entirely on who they are (or appear to be) rather than some deliberately controversial shit they spouted on the internet.

Lucky us, right?

*opens thread*

*backs away slowly trying not to make eye contact*

*wonders if only reading the bike forum in future might be the best idea*

Still trying to figure out how not wanting woman’s footy on the telly has anything to do with Harvey weinsteins crimes..

I actually agree with the op on this one… Take football as an example..noone is interested not because women are playing, it’s because the standard is dire. I wouldn’t watch men’s Sunday league if they put it on TV either, for similar reasons..

It’s nothing to do with sexism… I’d happily watch women play if the product was as good as the men’s game.

I’m assuming it wasn’t the state making those death threats?
I’m also assuming you reported them to the police, as such things are a crime, you know, to protect free speech…

The threats weren’t made against me. I have no vested interest one way or another in the outcome of the gender debate as it won’t have any impact on me. Just interested in the development

I don’t go around crying about it though, it’s not dignified.

I know that quite a few feminists have been physically attacked and had their personal lives affected for speaking out about their concerns around trans rights. That’s the group I had in mind about not being able to speak up. That’s not right and if you want to dismiss it that’s up to you. Go tell them they are undignified.

rather than some deliberately controversial shit they spouted on the internet.

If you think I’m deliberately spouting shit on the internet to be controversial then you have got me wrong. Just trying to have a discussion but I guess some people don’t like that, they prefer to hear only things they agree with. I’m not really interested in trying to convince you otherwise though.

Like I say, odious little man.

That’s really bad btw. I’m sure you’d object if someone referred to you as a “little woman”. Generally, it’s best to steer insults away from links with race, gender, colour etc.

I know that quite a few feminists have been physically attacked and had their personal lives affected for speaking out about their concerns around trans rights.

Did they go to the police?
This is not a freedom of speech issue, it’s a crime issue.

If you think I’m deliberately spouting shit on the internet to be controversial then you have got me wrong.

Apologies, just me then… 😳

That’s really bad btw. I’m sure you’d object if someone referred to you as a “little woman”. Generally, it’s best to steer insults away from links with race, gender, colour etc.

^This

posed a question and you answered it with an insult, followed by a hypothetical debate of your own creation featuring a gross caricature that indicates how you view people who disagree with you.

Well that’s not actually my intention or true. I was referring strictly to the argument that broadcasting women playing football is somehow ‘PC gone mad’. Which is, is it not, your contention/s assessment of it? Plus, you seemed to miss the self-deprecating joke/irony at the end of my (slight) caricature/paraphrasing of yours and the OPs contentions? I am honestly not getting it, the whole ‘normal balance’ thing. Maybe you could rewrite my dialogue but re-word by way of a more reasonable debate concluding with your contention/resolution? If indeed your contention is ‘grossly’ opposed to my understanding of it?

Scotroutes I don’t think the pilot cares as we appear to have driven another female forum member away. Well done chaps.

Malvern Rider – Member

I was referring strictly to the argument that broadcasting women playing football is somehow ‘PC gone mad’. Which is, is it not, your contention/s assessment of it?

My assessment of it is that it’s a blunt tool designed to effect change but the result will be a backlash and rejection (see the op as evidence of this). The upshot of that rejection could be people creeping toward the right, and white male identity politics as a response to feminist identity politics .

Plus, you seemed to miss the self-deprecating joke/irony at the end of my (slight) caricature/paraphrasing of yours and the OPs contentions?

I did miss that, but since it’s not my contention and I am merely trying to play devils advocate, and highlight the polarisation of opinion you’ll have to give me the benefit of the doubt.

I am honestly not getting it, the whole ‘normal balance’ thing. Maybe you could rewrite my dialogue but re-word by way of a more reasonable debate concluding with your contention/resolution? If indeed your contention is ‘grossly’ opposed to my understanding of it?

I’d rather talk to you, than construct an avatar of what I believe your opinion is in my own head. I believe in equality for everyone regardless of race, gender or sexual persuasion. I also believe that European western secular liberal society; although flawed, is the best society in human history. I don’t want to see a wedge driven into this society along racial or gender lines created by the narrative that white males control everything.

There are a lot of white males with nothing who will bite you in the ass if you you drive them into a corner. Witness Brexit, LePenn Trump etc.

There are a lot of white males with nothing who will bite you in the ass if you you drive them into a corner. Witness Brexit, LePenn Trump etc.

So that’s all white males’s fault as well? 😉

I actually agree with the op on this one… Take football as an example..noone is interested not because women are playing,

750 million people watched some of the last Women’s world cup. That’s a lot of no-ones. Pretty sure the BBC audience was higher than the average PL game for some England fixtures. Granted, there’s the free vs paid angle, but still to dismiss it as zero interest is factually incorrect.

Anyone watching the second-half of the socialist wimmin of color underwater wheelchair-polo final?

So broadcasting women playing football is a blunt tool designed to effect change but the result will be a backlash and rejection (see the op as evidence of this)

The upshot of that rejection could be people creeping toward the right, and white male identity politics as a response to feminist identity politics?

If that’s the ‘anti-caricature’ then how comes it makes my caricature look more like paraphrasing?

Or does ‘blunt tool’ not translate in context as ‘PC gone mad?’

Why would ‘white men’ get angry and resentful of ‘rejection’ because women are occasionally being broadcast playing football? Is women playing football somehow militant feminism?

Sorry, watching Ex-Machina. Will reply tomorrow.

The upshot of that rejection could be people creeping toward the right, and white male identity politics as a response to feminist identity politics?

See the whole “Red-Pill” movement

Well worth watching the documentary movie (Netflix/Amazon) which does discuss some interesting issues like the differences in male vs female suicide rates, workplace fatalities, mental health and homelessness statistics.

Jeez, isn’t there enough flippin’ football on the telly already. 😐

‘Women have very little idea of how much men hate them.’ Threads like this are a salient and sobering reminder.

Women have very little idea of how much men hate them.’ Threads like this are a salient and sobering reminder

I really struggle to see why people reach this conclusion based on the opinion that woman’s football isn’t worth watching.. Weird..

750 million people watched some of the last Women’s world cup.

Do you know what the average attendance at a top level woman’s game in the UK is.. The best team man city have around 2000 per game, only 4 in the top league in England average over 1000. So perhaps 750 million people at some point saw some of the world cup (I watched half the final, it was dire), but that is definitely not the norm.

Basically it’s a lover average than the top tier of non league football.. And I’m assuming noone wants to see that on the BBC sports homepage either

I say again, 750 million people. Not no-one. 750 million. Not 0. Loads. Including you 🙂

How many matches were there?

So, we’re just ignoring Jimjam’s lack of basic comprehension? 8)

TV viewing figures for the 2014 (mens) World Cup?

3.2 Billion. 😯

750M vs 3.2B?

Think it’s a fair estimate to say there are more than 4.3x the number of Male teams than Women’s teams. The women are doing pretty well there, on the popularity front.

Exactly scuzz, it’s showing there is an appetite for watching women’s sport. The example from before that I had was the ashes where they have significantly increased the number of people attending and watching.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-23/womens-cricket-on-rise-say-australian-stars-perry-and-haynes/9186256

If you refuse to acknowledge it exists because people don’t watch it then you will stay exactly there. It appears that is what a some people want.

I am very happy to see the peak of women’s sport reported on in the same way the male game is, just like they do at the Olympics etc.

If you refuse to acknowledge it exists because people don’t watch it then you will stay exactly there

Yep. It’s a completely circular argument.

It’s not popular so we won’t show it.
So it stays unpopular.

We’ve had the reverse situation in the past. Snooker as a spectator sport didnt really exist until Pot Black.

Make the pitches smaller, make the goals smaller, make the balls smaller. Maybe even make the games a bit shorter. That’d be an easy way to improve women’s football