Tim Farron

The questioner could have asked “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form”

Farron voted to allow discrimination in state services against homosexuals

All the more reason to ask him: “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” rather than a theological ‘have you stopped beating your wife” style question.

Mefty – we have danced this one before. If you can give a single example to backthat up I will give you a tenner.

I have never discriminated against anyone. I have employed muslims and Christians and I have worked for religious organisations. I have put measures in place to ensure that the muslims I employed were comfortable in their employment.

Unlike you I can separate my personal feelings from how I act.

But then I do not make excuses for and support a bigot like Farron who wants state employees to be able to discriminate against homosexuals.

laddie

🙁

Fair point out of breath. A decent journalist could have completely pinned him on that line of questioning given his voting record.

outofbreath – Member

So if you were in a pub quiz with Tim Farron, if you were asked is gluttony a sin and he said yes, and you said no, you would expect Tim to be marked wrong, and you to be marked right?

I wouldn’t say no.
🙂

Of course I believe sin exists.
It’s a human construct, along with millions of others.
I just don’t believe in the fundamental truth of the concept.

I’m better on the history and music rounds, tbh.

I wrote:

No I’m not saying all Brexiteers are hateful bigots. But there is a trend

(offers a poll in support of my suspicions)

turnerguy then accuses labels me a ‘bigot’, and in the next sentence:

But remainers seem to constantly lump all brexit voters in the same bucket and cast them all as ignorant and racist, and possible scum…

The ironing and projection is strong with this one 😕

Sorry but this won’t end well. I’m oot.

I wouldn’t say no. I believe sin exists.

Then you’d look like a fundamentalist nutter and the papers would crucify you. It’s a totally unfair question.

No discussion of TF would be complete without this clip which, I think, shows him in a good light:

outofbreath
Then you’d look like a fundamentalist nutter and the papers would crucify you. It’s a totally unfair question.

It’s a totally fair question!

You:
Do you believe in sin?

Me:
Yes, sin exists as a man-made construct.

What’s hard about that?

Farron could have said ‘yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin and I will/will not allow this to affect my vote on relevant topics.

Simple.

Then we know where we stand.

But he lied about it.
And now no one knows what he believes and how this affects his vote.

What’s hard about that?

You said:

A) “I wouldn’t say no.” – ie You think gluttony is a sin.

B) “Of course I believe sin exists.”

That already makes you *look* like a nutter.

Replace gluttony with sodomy and you’re into serious bigot territory. That’s why it’s an unfair question.

Whereas if I simply asked you “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” yo could just say ‘No’ and all would be well.

And now no one knows what he believes and how this affects how he voted.

Which is why “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” is a far, far better question, unless you’re a journo making a name for yourself.

What is wrong with asking him him a direct question about his beliefs?

But then I do not make excuses for and support a bigot like Farron who wants state employees to be able to discriminate against homosexuals.

if we assume that the distribution of different views of MP reflect the distribution of differing views of the population, then his vote with the discriminatory view should be valid, as a percentage of the population also hold that view.

Similar to a jury – should people with homophobic views be purged from jurys or should they be left there as the jury makeup is suppossed to be roughly/hopefully representative of the population, and a percentage of the population will have that view (if they are properly religeous).

The issue is the lying.

then his vote with the discriminatory view should be valid, as a percentage of the population also hold that view.

Problem is I doubt the percentage of the population who also hold that view really overlaps with those who might vote liberal.
So he is going to lose votes rather than gain them.

And now no one knows what he believes and how this affects how he voted.

Which is why “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” is a far, far better question, unless you’re a journo making a name for yourself.

What is wrong with asking him him a direct question about his beliefs?

That’s *exactly* what I’m advocating.

But I thought you objected to me doing that:

Geetee – I loathe and despise religion and the religious, I believe all people who believe in god(s) are feeble minded.

I think the religious, religion and belief in god as an incredibly regressive, negative, dangerous and harmful mental illness. It is a force of incredible harm and holds back the human race.

Its not biogotry.

Let’s see some of the reactions:

That’s a disgrace from a sensitive intelligent bloke such as yourself mate, seriously.

Really I haven’t always agreed with you buti never thought you were a biggot.

TJ you appear to continue to go down the “losing it” route.

As a friend, take a break.

TJ you’re a hypocrite.
Amen to that, and I think Ton would agree.

Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you loathe and despise the people you care deeply about?

Or are you so “feeble minded” that you can’t even keep track of what you’re saying?

You are a bigot, and worse that that, you are a bully, which given how much you’ve complained about others bullying you on here, makes you a hypocrite as well.

There’s a lot of truth in what you say Kenny Senior, but there is nothing particularly new concerning TJ’s hypocrisy and deeply insulting attitude towards people who have religious convictions. In that respect he isn’t much different to Woppit’s obsessive intolerance, other than Woppit is probably more honest and less insulting than TJ.

And another from when I posted it since your comeback

Believing people are feeble minded when you have never met them or listened to them explain their views – that’s prejudice and yes, bigotry. Sorry – you’re bang to rights. If you’re not happy with this label then don’t just complain – have a sit down and a bit of a think. Re-assess your views.

Just send the £10 to Christian Aid and don’t forget to tick the Gift Aid box.

outofbreath – Member
Which is why “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” is a far, far better question, unless you’re a journo making a name for yourself.

I disagree.

It’s a different question.

Oh I missed this one which is spot on.

TJ, either you’re about to declare the Edinburgh defence, or you’re just a bigot. I’d like to think that it’s the former, but sadly I don’t believe that’s the case.

I’ve been one of those who’s supported you and refrained from commenting even when I thought you were wrong. No longer.

For someone who works in one of the caring professions, you display quite astonishingly intolerant views. There’s nothing wrong with opinion, but the sheer forcefulness of your incessant desire to prove everyone else wrong is simply unedifying. I can only hope that you’re not as unpleasant off-screen, and wonder (in all seriousness) whether you need some professional help.

You took a break from here a little while back, and when you returned you seemed a little more reserved, a little less eager to criticise. That was a much more pleasant TJ; if I see you on a thread I simply look away now. I urge you to take another break and ask yourself whether you really need to be so combative to everyone, on pretty much every subject.

But I thought you objected to me

Second time I’ve seen this stalking / bullying nonsense aimed at TJ. Guess it may not have been you, but…

Get a grip. Thinking the religious are idiots is entirely reasonable. They have invisible friends.

Feel free to quote this again and again if that’s what turns you on.

For someone who works in one of the caring professions, you display quite astonishingly intolerant views.

But you could say the same of Farron, he’s traded on his caring side.

Ask TJ if he lets those views (note that I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you 🙂 ) influence his work.

Bet you he doesn’t lie.

You took a break from here a little while back, and when you returned you seemed a little more reserved, a little less eager to criticise.

He’s really nice.

He’s just a pain in the arse on the internet.
😀

Second time I’ve seen this stalking / bullying nonsense aimed at TJ. Guess it may not have been you

No it was probably me, when he stops calling people bigots I will stop, but on this occassion he specifically invited it and pleasingly Christian Aid will hopefully be £12.50 better off.

It’s a different question.

Well the drawback of your preffered question is in your own words: “And now no one knows what he believes and how this affects how he voted.”

The problem is sin is a wooly & meaningless word. Whatever answer TF gave to a question about ‘sin’ would leave everyone not having a clue what he really thought. You’ve told me that you think gluttony is a sin, apart from making you look a bit odd, it’s told me nothing about what you really think about over-eating.

I am certain gluttony is a sin, but you have no idea if that means I saw a documentary about the 7 deadly sins and rembered it from that or if I torture fat people to death in my spare time.

Rusty Spanner – Member

Farron could have said ‘yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin and I will/will not allow this to affect my vote on relevant topics.

Simple.

Yep, and then the next question would have been “Isn’t that a lie Mr Farron? Your voting record certainly suggests it is”. The fact is, that line was never open to him- his beliefs have influenced his voting. Because he’s basically honest, I think.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having your beliefs influence your voting- otherwise you’re just a blank card and nobody knows what they’re voting for. But you can’t lie about it.

Fallon could probably be honest with his constituents and get elected, but it was a problem as leader. Theresa May’s supposedly a christian but she certainly doesn’t let her faith influence her votes or leadership or apparently her day to day life, is that better?

He had to either come up with a response that’d let him explain honestly where he stands and what it means as leader- which he bottled- or he’d have to weasel out- which he did. And tbh at that point it’s not just about the lie or the reality, it’s about being a party leader that can’t even stand for your own position never mind your party.

I think Fallon’s actually a pretty good guy, and a valuable MP but he wasn’t equipped to be a party leader, least of all for the lib dems at that time

I am certain gluttony is a sin, but you have no idea if that means I saw a documentary about the 7 deadly sins and rembered it from that or if I torture fat people to death in my spare time.

If you think being straight is not a sin, but being gay is… many people will have a problem with that, and tell you so. Nothing to do with “gluttony”… think what you like on that, I have no desire to comment on it… few would. Your suggested actions seem a tad extreme though, I’d advise avoiding torturing or killing people generally. Weird thing to bring up.

If you think being straight is not a sin, but being gay is… many people will have a problem with that

Not christians obviously. There’s a manual.

Every Christian I know accepts gay people and doesn’t think they sin simply by being gay. They follow the word of some guy called Jesus. He never said anything about homosexuality being a sin.

If you think being straight is not a sin, but being gay is

I’m not an expert on sin but I’m pretty sure being straight *is* a sin, in the sense that shagging without being married is a sin and sodomy is a sin even if you indulge in it with a woman which I’d guess most people have now and then. Equally I’m not 100pc sure being gay is a sin in itself.

Perhaps someone who knows more about ‘sin’ than me can answer that definitively.

That’s why I chose gluttony for my example – it’s much less complicated.

outofbreath – Member
It’s a different question.
Well the drawback of your preffered question is in your own words: “And now no one knows what he believes and how this affects how he voted.”

No, I’m sorry, that’s wrong.
That sad outcome is due to his lying.
Nothing else.

That’s why I chose gluttony for my example – it’s much less complicated.

Gluttony is a thing.
My views on it vary depending upon how hungry you are, but generally not a huge fan.
🙂

The concept of gluttony exists independently from the concept of sin.
As do forgiveness, love, hate, duty etc.

Ask TJ if he lets those views (note that I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you ) influence his work.

Bet you he doesn’t lie.
It does not affect at all how I treat people at work or outside of work. I treat everyone as equal, always have, always will. I gave plenty of examples of this in previous debate.

The difference is I am able to separate my thoughts and opinions from my actions because I am not blinded by a creed like Farron but because I have a strong moral sense.

to be a bigot is to treat people as lessor for their beliefs or other aspects such as race or sexuality. – I do not. Unlike Farron who wants to allow state employee to discriminate. I gave plenty of examples of this before.

I’ll repeat one example of this. It is NOT a part of my duty to take to take people in my care to church so I cannot instruct someone else to do so nor if they want to go to church do I HAVE to take them. When a patient wishes to go to church I take them myself. Sometimes in my own time, sometimes in work time. I have done this many times. Why? Not because I believe in a god nor because its my duty but I do it because its important to the person and thus is the morally right thing to do. Yes I think they are daft to believe in God but that does not affect my actions.

Tenner to Christian aid – no issue at all. I have provisions in my will to give money to religion based charities. Christian aid are a fairly inclusive outfit IIRC. I have also donated money in the past to the local Sikh temple. MY Christmas dinner goes to them – or at least the money I would spend on one if I had one. I fast instead on Christmas day.

[/url]Image1 by TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr[/img]

Oh and mefty – part of the reason for this all is I am calling out Farron as a bigot for his bigoted views. this is a man who thinks and has voted for public employees to be able to discriminate against homosexuals. thats bigotry

thinking anyone who believes in any God is a sandwich short of a picnic but being able to put those feelings aside to treat them all as equal is not bigotry. YOu might not like it but my moralcode – to treat all as equal no matter what trumps my dislike of religion.

Its the advantage of being a rational being not in thrall to some ancient text and creed.

If Farron had been able to say ” My personal belief is that homosexuality is a sin but in my professional capacity I will not let this affect my actions” I would have applauded him. But unfortunatly as an evangelical christian he cannot do that.

I am certain gluttony is a sin, but you have no idea if that means I saw a documentary about the 7 deadly sins and rembered it from that or if I torture fat people to death in my spare time.

The second one?

Quid pro qou mefty. Sikhs are my favoured religious charuity because of the way they operate. Can’t find a donate link to my local lot ( I give them cash) but these guys have a donate link. Or paypal me a tenner and I’ll hand it to them for their feed the homeless work

http://www.swatlondon.com/

I saw a documentary about the 7 deadly sins

I saw one of those. There was a shocking true-life bit at the end involving a box. 🙂

I read this thread and see that fundamentalists are not just limited to religions.

Inverse bigotry is a sight to behold

mefty +1, 2, 3

Not a Sikh and know little about Sikhism so am wondering how their views on abortion differ from Farron’s?

They follow the word of some guy called Jesus. He never said anything about homosexuality being a sin.

I had a quick look at this. Discounting the OT is standard practice these days yeah, so we’ll look at the NT. The OT mostly just says “don’t be a bit rapey, and don’t put it in the botty” anyway.

Romans 1 talks about both sexes and it basically boils down to saying “don’t put it in the botty” again. It talks about things which are “unnatural” which could be an argument against homosexuality if ipso facto we consider homosexuality to be unnatural, or if we infer that it’s talking individuals acting unnaturally then it could actually be in favour of homosexuals not being true to themselves by masquerading as straight.

1 Corinthians 6 says you’re not going to heaven if you’re a gay man (or a thief, adulterer and a bunch of others). On the face of it this is pretty explicitly suggesting that being gay is a sin. However there’s some wiggle room in translation here though because the word for homosexual is the same word for male prostitute, and indeed the New International bible refers to “male prostitutes and homosexual offenders” rather than “men who practice homosexuality” which I think is a subtle but important difference. Also, in case you missed it earlier, don’t put it in the botty.

1 Timothy 1 refers to male homosexuals being unjust and against doctrine, but suffers from the same translation issue as Corinthians.

Conclusion: as far as the bible is concerned it’s probably fine to be gay depending which version you read, but a fun evening playing Hide the Sausage is right out.

As an aside, was buttsecks a big problem a couple of millennia ago, or is this just an extension of the “go breed and make new followers” schtick?

Oh and, you’re right, Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality as far as I can find so far.

SaxonRider – Member

Thanks for your input, ctk. If only the world’s philosophers, theologians, and historians would listen to you, everything would be so much better.

Sorry Sir I’ll try harder next time

🙄

For TJ, and a genuine question…What’s the legislation you refer to that’s to do with permitting discrimination?

Oh and, you’re right, Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality as far as I can find so far.

well apparentluy all the stuff that Paul said is his word so he might as well have said it.

I posted a link to the NT stuff earlier, but see this quote and link:

So did Jesus address homosexuality? Yes, He did. He did so by sending His Spirit to superintend the writing of Paul such that what Paul wrote was precisely what Jesus intended, so much so that it could be said to be “God-breathed.” Jesus condemned homosexuality by means of Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality. And therefore, to deny that homosexuality is sinful is to deny Jesus Himself, and that is irreconcilable with true, biblical Christianity.

https://www.tms.edu/preachersandpreaching/jesus-never-address-homosexuality/

Every Christian I know accepts gay people and doesn’t think they sin simply by being gay. They follow the word of some guy called Jesus. He never said anything about homosexuality being a sin.

well how can they be Christians if they don’t accept the word of God, as higlighted in that link. More hypocrisy and make it up as you go along so it suits you. No wonder Aetheists get frustrated and angry at people with religious beliefs, as it is all so irrational.

thegreatape – Member

For TJ, and a genuine question…What’s the legislation you refer to that’s to do with permitting discrimination?

It didn’t make it into law. IIRC on the homosexual marriage bill there was an amendment he voted for an exemption from registrars having to perform same sex marriages if they didn’t want to.

Ie allowing a public servant to discriminate against homosexuals in the performing of a public duty. 11 lib dems voted for this.

https://www.libdemvoice.org/11-liberal-democrat-mps-vote-for-registrars-to-be-exempt-from-marrying-same-sex-couples-34590.html