Peter,

Couldn’t agree more; looked like the job spec for those in the mil too. Maybe peeps should take some Kleenex to their GP next time they visit, so they can dry their eyes.

“My experience with GPs over the years has been dismal, it seems a resting ground for the less competent doctors where they can hide. Hospital docs on the other hand seem to be more competent in general, perhaps because there is more supervision there.”

Not quie sure I agree with that.

GP’s have a difficult job. They have to know about everything, a hospital doctor has expert knowledge in their field. I do find it odd that GP’s basically do their training and then move to GP land, where training doesn’t really continue after that, or maybe not to the same degree as hospital doctors.

From knowing a few Hospital Docs and GP’s they do attract different types of people, and no doubt about it GP is seen as the easy option compared to hospital work.

Peterfile – I’d be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement.

“GP’s have a difficult job. They have to know about everything, a hospital doctor has expert knowledge in their field. I do find it odd that GP’s basically do their training and then move to GP land, where training doesn’t really continue after that, or maybe not to the same degree as hospital doctors.”

Bit like a vet or dentist who are surgeons from the outset then?!

GPs don’t know about everything. The lack of recurrent training and assessment in medicine is outrageous too. Nope, a good GP (who has humility too and doesn’t falsely believe they’re a Demi-god) is a rarity IME. Sadly my father fell foul of such ineptitude and is living in hell as a result.

You do medicine because you didn’t get into vet school, surely?

You do medicine because you didn’t get into vet school, surely?

At least they do something to help. What the **** to you do? Except air your warped prejudices on here?

At least they do something to help. What the **** to you do? Except air your warped prejudices on here?

Are you a member of the caring profession?

By comparison, a nurse on the median wage has a net contribution after tax relief (which due to the lower wage is therefore at the standard rate) of 5.2%

Nothing to add (except my own pay reducing in real terms year on year, and my pensions contributions increasing as a nurse on the median wage!)

but zulu, I grudgingly salute you: in the 12 hours theis thread has been up, you would seem to be the only one of the usual public-sector/srtike haterz to post on a thread with so many real doctors on it. At least 2 of the other big hitterz ‘regulars’ have posted elsewhere on here last night and this morning and yet somehow missed this thread. 😀 ❓ 😆

Kit,

I’m not the one bleating about my pension!! If theyre doing because they love
the care aspect, then the fact that they should up their pension contributions should be a tiny (on those inflated wages) price to pay.

I served my country, but don’t want/expect high praise for that. It was my job, I loved it and it’s given me so many opportunities.

Nope they’re not that special (like all of us) and don’t deserve special treatment.

I think you will find if you speak to doctors that there are varying reasons for them taking industrial action. Obviously the action is ostensibly about pension, but many are using it as an opportunity to voice their dissatisfaction about the healthcare reforms, forced in by this government with very little/no support from the royal colleges. As I understand it a strike or action on the back if the healthcare reforms would have been deemed illegal as it would not have been over terms and conditions. I can certainly understand the general publics view that the doctors are paid well (we are) and that in these times of job losses and uncertainly we should be happy with what we have (we should), but the fact remains that the pension plan was renegotiated 4 years ago and agreed on then, the pension pot is in surplus and so no extra money from the government is required to maintain it, and most annoyingly MP’s themselves and senior civil servants have not yet made any changes to their pensions, so leading by example is a phrase alien to them. There are certainly some rubbish and dangerous GP’s, as there are rubbish and dangerous hospital doctors, nurses, solicitors, engineers etc etc, but there are also some very good ones who care for their patients, go the extra mile and work damn hard to ensure that they get the best care possibly available to them. This government is slowly instigating plans which will precipitate the privatization of the NHS, and they have been allowed to do this with very little public opposition, yet when a day of industrial action is planned by doctors trying make a stand against a hypocritical government everyone is up in arms.

Saxabar I refer you to my point about working additional hours for nothing above. I think everyone would agree that the out of ours GP work was a bit of a cock up.

It’s a blind and angry race to the bottom to start comparing career paths, but as pointed out above other disciplines and careers require similar amounts of training and hardships. While I don’t disagree that goal posts shouldn’t be shifted nor agreements reneged upon, I still feel many in the medical profession have done well over the last ten years or so.

I served my country, but don’t want/expect high praise for that.

Relieving pain and suffering ? Don’t be so modest – you deserve praise.

I think you will find if you speak to doctors that there are varying reasons for them taking industrial action. Obviously the action is ostensibly about pension, but many are using it as an opportunity to voice their dissatisfaction about the healthcare reforms, forced in by this government with very little/no support from the royal colleges. As I understand it a strike or action on the back if the healthcare reforms would have been deemed illegal as it would not have been over terms and conditions. I can certainly understand the general publics view that the doctors are paid well (we are) and that in these times of job losses and uncertainly we should be happy with what we have (we should), but the fact remains that the pension plan was renegotiated 4 years ago and agreed on then, the pension pot is in surplus and so no extra money from the government is required to maintain it, and most annoyingly MP’s themselves and senior civil servants have not yet made any changes to their pensions, so leading by example is a phrase alien to them. There are certainly some rubbish and dangerous GP’s, as there are rubbish and dangerous hospital doctors, nurses, solicitors, engineers etc etc, but there are also some very good ones who care for their patients, go the extra mile and work damn hard to ensure that they get the best care possibly available to them. This government is slowly instigating plans which will precipitate the privatization of the NHS, and they have been allowed to do this with very little public opposition, yet when a day of industrial action is planned by doctors trying make a stand against a hypocritical government everyone is up in arms.

That.

mikertroid – Ok so you want doctors to be paid less and get a smaller pension.

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

FunkyDunc – Member
Peterfile – I’d be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement.
POSTED 15 MINUTES AGO #

I can tell you, working in Architecture, that salaries are nowhere near those of doctors. Architects need a minimum of 7 years training and would be very lucky to start on 27k after that. A typical project architect after 7 years of training and 10 years experience might be around 40-45k. To be getting to the 120k mark people are talking about for doctors would mean being very senior in a major practice, or owning a smaller practice. Average salary for an architect in the uk is around 50k, and that is mainly because a lot of architects take the financial risks involved in owning and running their own business. Salaried architects very rarely get over 50k.

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

Maybe as the general public we will feel we have dodged a bullet. I understood that Doctors choose medicine as a career and a caring one at that, not simply an opportunity to become wealthy.
You also assume that lawyers (I know a few) do actually earn 000’s more when in my experience it is is only the very few at the top of their profession who often work incredibly hard and sometimes take great risks.
As Hamish Meldrum was doing this morning you are making a generalisation based on a very small number of lawyers and expecting parity with them.
I would be interested in seeing the median salaries of both professions as I know of one solicitor who has also qualified as a barrister and he earns half the average salary of a doctor, I also have a friend who is now a judge after many years of practice as a barrister and he earns a little above it.

Fubkydunc: Hopefully only those that are competent and have a genuine flair will apply. Happy days!

Ernie: mwah! Why, thank you!!

Mind you, I know of several who’ve caused/worsened suffering….. Maybe performance tested pay and pensions should be introduced?

FunkyDunc – Member
Peterfile – I’d be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement

Generally these are partnerships which don’t really have pension schemes and employer contributions. In addition with very few exceptions they will have assumed unlimited liability as part of that partnership. Those are quite key differences. I’m a senior partner in a large firm and i debate this regularly with 2 medical friends I ride with.

The amount of BS spouted in this thread is quite fantatsic. Its quite telling that most of the rational, well thought through and balanced responses are from the actual doctors. And that is despite having to deal with the rest of the general public on a day to day basis!

But this really does take the biscuit.

but I don’t see the more qualified vets or dentists bleating

If you actually think a vet or dentist is more qualified than your GP I sugest that next time you are felling a bit poorly you go see a vet, surely most of the major organs are fairly similar.

(For the interested you can become a vet in 5 years, to become a GP takes at least 10)

Jffletch,

Vets arrive out of college way more quelled than a doc. I’d happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments.

Earnie – have a look around those working on a hospital ward or A&E – you may notice a few different uniforms with rank slides.

And that is despite having to deal with the rest of the general public on a day to day basis!

This is quite telling, especially when you consider that many of the unwashed poor dont say thank you!

Fletch,

By the way we’re not in France and we’re not discussing French doctors.

Vet training is 6 years min. You qualify as a surgeon!!!

I’d happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments.

I bet they appreciate that : “well actually it’s about me I’ve come to see you…….”

I guess the thermometer up the arse might make it worthwhile. And I suppose growling at any discomfort is acceptable.

What kind of country do you all want to live in.
This government are eroding the police pensions and conditions
Fire service pensions and conditions
Making soldiers redundant 8 days before their pension s are due
Eroding doctors pensions and conditions
Eroding teachers pay and conditions
All,these are professional roles that are essential in a balanced society, and if these people a unhappy, society suffers
Can’t believe what I read from people on this forum, disrespecting doctors, soldiers etc, and trivialising the role they play in society.
These people are the backbone of society, it’s not like they work in a job like IT where anyone can be trained up in a short time, they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

who do,it for the love of the job

Although it would appear not.

Labour were bad, but the Tories are in another league
Evil, selfish, spiteful , bastards

“Generally these are partnerships which don’t really have pension schemes and employer contributions. In addition with very few exceptions they will have assumed unlimited liability as part of that partnership.”

Ok so they may carry more personal risk through out their working life, through liability and no secured pension, but my point still stands that they will (probably) earn a load more in service and in retirement.

Miketroid – you keep going to see your vet if you like, it will help lower the costs to the NHS 😆

The following is a recent quote from a GP, taken from a medical website. It’s in relation to the article in Saturday’s Times by Matthew Parris and which caused a furore amongst the medics.

It is quite clear to me that good GPs (and their practice teams) are a national treasure.

Ernie,

I don’t think I’m in a position to divulge (medical in confidence and all that) but I’m having a right chuckle!!

CG.

Spot on! There aren’t many!!

“who do,it for the love of the job

Although it would appear not.”

I don’t think they do it for the love of the job, I think they do it because they genuinely care and want to care for people, a rare quality in many people these days unfortunately. Mrs FD also finds her job very rewarding, some thing that I can not say for myself.

Peterfile – I’d be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement.

I’m not sure how a hospital consultant is appointed, but to make senior partner at a big law firm, you’ve given up your life and are one of the most talented lawyers to have ever walked through the doors.

In my last firm, the Europe/Middle East/Africa senior partner was on about £1.2 (which is the average equity partner salary, no special pay for being senior partner).

I would have thought comparing just a regular salaried partner in a big law firm (about £200-300k) is more in line with a hospital consultant since they are still at the higher levels of their career, but there’s lots of them and nothing hugely interesting to separate them (unlike senior partners and managing partners etc).

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

As others have pointed out above, the figures for the legal profession vary massively. The figures you tend to see touted by the media are for global/US firms, and the vast majority of the legal profession in the UK does not work for global/US firms.

I”ve got lots of lawyer friends who will probably never earn more than the salary I qualified on at a US firm. No reflection on their ability, that’s just what the market is like.

As far as I’m aware (please correct me otherwise), it wouldn’t be too difficult for a good medic to land a £60-70k job within a few years of fully qualifying? The same can’t be said for the legal profession. You’ve got to be good, sell your soul and secure a place against strong (and numerous) competition for salaries like that when you leave law school.

It’s not common, and definitely not as common as most people think.

As for the legal version of a GP (we call them high street lawyers), the salaried ones will be unlikely to ever earn £60k in their career.

Big business is where the money is, but big business is not representative of what most lawyers do.

Well, I find that what I quoted above just reinforces my opinion of the arrogance that is displayed by some GPs.

As miketroid says, you can get better treatment from a vet. Certainly for my ongoing medical condition you can.

FWIW the ‘pay versus responsibility and qualifications’ was argued on here round about the time of the November public sector strikes, except this time it was how degree qualified posts in privateland pay more than teaching or nursing despite the obvious diaprity in stress, responsibility and indeed the likelihood that you might be both struck off and prosecuted for your acts or omissions.

There seems to be the same argument here today, but backwards about doctors. -ie “its not fair they get paid so much compared to an architect”. Well, same except no one has mentioned the “struck off or prosecuted” bit yet. and the message from the righties last time this was discussed if i recall rightly was “some jobs just pay more than others, get over it”.

If we are challenging that again now but the other way round, then I will have a pay rise that puts my job (nurse) just a few percent above the national average wage please. 😀

These people are the backbone of society, it’s not like they work in a job like IT where anyone can be trained up in a short time, they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

Lets get this straight – none of these people are poorly paid.

Certain people need a reality check when they consider how well, or poorly, renumerated are for the job they do

The UK median wage is about 25k

Ok so they may carry more personal risk through out their working life, through liability and no secured pension, but my point still stands that they will (probably) earn a load more in service and in retirement.

And you have a problem with this why?

“you’ve given up your life and are one of the most talented lawyers to have ever walked through the doors.”

Exactly the above. Mrs FD is in an 8 year training to be a consultant. They are continually reviewed and assessed, have to pass 3 sets of professional exams, can be prevented from progressing at any stage etc etc.

“I would have thought comparing just a regular salaried partner in a big law firm (about £200-300k) is more in line with a hospital consultant since they are still at the higher levels of their career, but there’s lots of them and nothing hugely interesting to separate them (unlike senior partners and managing partners etc).”

A new consultant scale is roughly £80-£120k. Top NHS consultants can not really earn more than £150k. Mrs FD has 4 years of training left ie before she can start applying for consultant positions and she currently earns approx £50k and works roughly 65+ hours per week, but will then spend spare time either going in to work to improve her log book, or publishing papers/doing audits etc. I probably get to spend 1 in 4 weekends with Mrs FD, and even then she will do some work at some point.

She wants to be one of the best in the UK in her field but will never earn the somes of money you talk about.

Vets arrive out of college way more quelled than a doc. I’d happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments

Err, yeah, OK? So a Vet can learn is 6 years what a GP can learn in 10? Or would you like all of your health needs to be taken care of by a Junior Doctor just out of Uni? Sure a Vet is a Vet once they leave college and therefore appear “more qualified” but they certainly don’t have more knowledge regarding how to solve the problems they are pesented with on a daily basis. But the decisions are less diverse and critical so we call them Vets anyway.

As miketroid says, you can get better treatment from a vet. Certainly for my ongoing medical condition you can.

Just think about that for a minute. Have you got cat flu? Have you been swallowing rocks again?

I think these comments are just indicative of the lack of value we place on medical services in this country due to the fact we get it “free”. Look how much doctors get paid in a private healthcare market such as the USA etc. And then look at the % of income people spend on healthcare and you may just realise what a fantastic deal we get here.

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Lets get this straight – none of these people are poorly paid.

Certain people need a reality check when they consider how well, or poorly, renumerated are for the job they do

The UK median wage is about 25k

Are you sure anyone has suggested that doctors have low paid jobs ?

Are you sure you don’t need a reality check Z-11 ?

BTW Z-11, I’m surprised that an old Tory stalwart like yourself should believe that people’s remuneration should reflect more average wages. When did this sudden conversion occur ?

On the one hand it’s hard to have too much sympathy as on the face of it they’ve already got a much more comfortable position than most of us will ever have.
But I’m uncomfortable with the underlying assumption that if people are relatively well off they should just be grateful for what they’ve got and shut up, when put in a position that the rest of us would probably feel quite justified about making a right song and dance about. Why should they?

And all this “they should do it for the love and not care about the pay” guff- how many people spouting that line a)like their job, and b) would do it “for the love”?