Those striking Doctors,

Best to be ill tommorrow or fall off your bike.

As hopefully most of the dead heads who clog up the surgeries and hospitals will take the hint and realise that only ill people will be seen and treated due to limited numbers on duty.

So this isn’t a striking doctors thread then and more of a dead head mini rant? -1/10 🙂

Sad times when the drs start striking.

Indeed sad times wheen the governmnet suddenly changes the rules and conditions of service for an essential service

Agreed and i know from first hand experience how they feel.

I’m looking forward to my opportunity to strike tomorrow…..

I’ll be at work from 10-8 if anyone wants me!

Sad times when the drs start striking.

Indeed, and please don’t underestimate how far the medical profession feels it has been pushed to come to this. Despite descriptions in the media, this is technically industrial action rather than an outright strike. As such, most people (in hospital) are going in but will be providing an emergency/urgent service only. This includes eg. cancer work.

While I don’t want to get drawn into the rights and wrongs of this, the NHS pension scheme was renegotiated 4 years ago to make it affordable in the long term, and is only being changed now to make it easier to sell off the NHS to the private sector (and indeed, Danny Alexander is on record as saying that the existing pension scheme would discourage this). The Department of Health are not even prepared to meet with the health service unions to discuss a the government’s proposed pension reforms – what other option is there in this case but industrial action?

Andy

renegotiated four years ago

now where else have i heard that?

So let me get this right. A few years back the doctors got everything they wanted and more in the pay deal – I remember reading something about the negotiators being amazed that the government agreed to the pay requests etc.
And now despite earning huge pay packets, and large pension pots, they are upset enough to strike?
I get the ‘changing the rules and conditions’ while in service is hard, but is this not the MTFU and share some pain moment for the over rewarded doctors?

A few years back the doctors got everything they wanted and more in the pay deal – I remember reading something about the negotiators being amazed that the government agreed to the pay requests etc.

That was more like 10 years ago, on a background of sub-inflationary pay rises over many years (the reason there is an independent Doctors’ and Dentists’ pay review body is evidently so the government can ignore it). Yes, the deal to drop out-of-hours cover in primary care was an enormous cock-up on the part of the government, but, frankly, if a significant part of your job involved nights/weekends and someone offered you a 10% pay cut not to do it, you would jump at it too. In any case, much of what was described as ‘huge pay rises’ was either performance-related pay (in the case of GPs) or payment for work actually done (in the case of hospital consultants – and even the DoH civil servants told the politicians in the run in to that one that consultants were doing far more work for the NHS than their contracts suggested)

The pension deal for the whole NHS was renegotiated four years ago. It wasn’t what the BMA (or Unison) wanted but an acceptable compromise was reached. The difference this time, and the reason industrial action is taking place is that the government will not even negotiate.

Why do you think the medical profession is over-rewarded?

Andy

but is this not the MTFU and share some pain moment for the over rewarded doctors?

Yes lets not target the financial industries eh

Striking Doctors

I wouldnt bother trying they also think teachers are overpaid on here too, you’ve got no chance!

and someone offered you a 10% pay cut not to do itsomething legally, you would jump at it too.

I’ve heard that argument somewhere else tonight…

So maybe we should get them to do all the nights again, and keep the pension pot….

The doctors are in the same position as the Scottish Teachers, and have my sympathy. A recent renegotiation ensured that the pension pot was in good health and fully funded.

Now a new Government wants to tear that up and use public sector pension contributions to pay off the deficit. They are unwilling (actually unable) to show how our pension fund is in deficit, instead just interested in grabbing the money. Despite it being a devolved matter the SNP administration in Edinburgh are unable to stand up to Westminster as Westminster has ultimate control over funding.

So maybe we should get them to do all the nights again, and keep the pension pot….

Of course, the great joke there is that the government already do keep the pension pot – NHS pension contributions go straight back to the Treasury.

Hospital doctors do enough nights already, thanks.

Now a new Government wants to tear that up and use public sector pension contributions to pay off the deficit.

This is exactly the problem. If they would even meet to negotiate, a compromise satisfactory to all might be achievable. They won’t.

Andy

I’ve two mates who are Doctors, one is going on strike and earns £190kpa the other isn’t and doing a double shift to cover..

Guess who votes for which party??

Great story but I bet it’s bullshit

Scottish Teachers,

and the English and Welsh no?

Yep, all those in the TPS (which also include some academics). The most galling thing about the TPS renegotiation is the extra money we pay in doesn’t go into the pension pot, it goes straight to the Treasury to spend.

The docs have my full support.

I only mention Scottish teachers specifically as that is where I work, and the manifestation of how Westminster is strongarming Holyrood.

I don’t have any specific knowledge of the situation regarding Teacher’s Pensions in E&W, so don’t know if the funds are healthy or not.

I am CERTAIN that some of the Civil Service pensions are in drastic need of reform, but that’s what Dave and Gideon want – to start divide and rule…

Retiring at 60 on a £48k pension just isn’t good enough, dammit.

To add another side – pension same as mp’s etc. only they pay 50% less in contributions to the proposed deal for medics.

If they change theirs they can change the medics.

And yes we live longer but will my operating skills by that good at 68? I am not so sure on that one….

Retiring at 60 on a £48k pension just isn’t good enough, dammit.

Or an accurate impression.

only they pay 50% less in contributions to the proposed deal for medics.

IIRC as GPs pay both employer and employee pension contribs (as they’re technically self-employed) they will pay >25% of earnings into the scheme.

Lansley on TV this evening saying essentially the pension changes will be pushed through whatever happens. Without negotiation. How is this democratic?

Andy

So what are the real figures then? I can’t say I was overly sympathetic seeing the £120k pay, and retire @ 60 on £48k headline figures on the news. I know most doctors work hard and have a crap load of training costs to pay off but that still seems a pretty generous pension (although how much of the £120k goes into contributions wasn’t clear).

Whoever the idiot that they had on R4 this morning getting properly reamed by John Humphreys has done a terrific job in convincing everyone who heard the interview that the striking doctors with an average salary of £112,000 are completely deserving of our sympathy and support. :rolls:

Remember reading somewhere that the doctors’ pension scheme was running at a c.£2bn surplus, government want to up this to cover shortfalls for other public sector workers’ pensions.

Married to a GP (who’s not taking industrial action) who reckons the beef is about the way things are happening, much less to do with numbers.

“pay”, and “take home pay” are significantly different for GPs.
A typical full time GP (in my area at least) will earn between £50k and £280k – we covered this in a meeting session yesterday, and tbh the outliers really are outliers – not too sure what’s going on there. Essentially, it’s probably about £120k “pay”, but as Andy said they pay employee and employer contributions, so are pensioned about 24.5% of this figure. Minus professional fees, tax, ni, and other figures, and the end result is nowhere near the published figures in the press.

Don’t get me wrong – its not a small amount, and is likely to be much great than average wage (or even average wage x 2), but do take the above calculations into account before “knowing” all doctors earn £150k plus……

DrP

On a side note – GPs who “earn” £250k etc aren’t paid that directly by the NHS – they are essentially shrewd business men who run a series of practices staffed mostly by “salary” doctors – if they pay the salary doctors (say) 10% less than they “bring in”, the extra money is put into their pay cheque! This isn’t illegal or dodgy, it’s just what it is.

Striking Doctors you say…. 🙂

We need to seperate hospital doctors from GPs, the first group provide top level life saving treatment, the second do very little which couldn’t be handled by an experienced nurse (FWIW on R4 last night an experienced GP was complaining most of his work these days was either referred to a specialised consultant or done by a nurse – that seems like a good setup to me).

A £50k index linked pension would ordinarily require a pension pot of around £2m to fund – that’s how generous and gold plated these pensions are (if you imagine a doctor earns 100k that would mean an additional 50k per anum be placed into a pension fund if it were to be funded in the way private sector pensions are)

EDIT: to respond to comments above 25% pa into pension is no where near enough to fund the amounts doctors receive, as in popst it’s abot half of the required contribution

I can’t say I have that much sympathy for doctors as they’ve done pretty well on the pay front over the last ten years or so, but criticising them is to miss the bigger picture. Anger and attention needs to be directed at those who have run the show and landed us in this mess.

Jambalaya sorry but wrong. Nurses follow defined pathways, doctors do not. Some things can be done by nurses, but suggesting gp’s are not needed is farcical.

They get a lot of stick and as pointed out above some do very well. It’s far from an easy job on that the consequences of getting it wrong are often massive.

We need to seperate hospital doctors from GPs, the first group provide top level life saving treatment, the second do very little which couldn’t be handled by an experienced nurse (FWIW on R4 last night an experienced GP was complaining most of his work these days was either referred to a specialised consultant or done by a nurse – that seems like a good setup to me).

Blimey – not sure whether to put that down to ignorance or stupidity!!
I can see which way this thread is going, so like bannatyne, I’m out…..

I’ll leave you with the words of Mr A Einstein:
“Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them…..”

Take care, stay safe people…..

DrP

“Retiring at 60 on a £48k pension just isn’t good enough, dammit.”

I can only comment as the husband of a hospital doctor.

However, that type of Pension feels completely reasonable to me.

* My wife got £25k of debt training to be a Doctor.
* Continues to have to pay £1k + per year out of own pocket for training.
* We have had to fully relocate in the country in order for her to continue her training, and will probably have to do so at least one more time before she becomes a consultant (most hospital doctors are less lucky and only get 1 year contracts)
* Every year she gets reassigned to a new hospital (with only 2 months notice) which can mean anything up to a 2 hour commute each way (after you have worked a 12hr + shift) I am having to go part time to accomodate the latest change.
* Pay has been slowly erroded over the last few years (hospital doctors dont earn anything like the money being talked about above) and when you work out the pro rata value it really is quite poor.
* The government will not employ enough hospital doctors so those doctors there are struggle to maintain a service, and their training suffers.
* Doctors are legally limited to 48hrs per week, however because of the point above they end up working 60+ per week unpaid and unpensioned. She routinely gets asked to come in on holidays, and not to use annual leave allocations.
* Most of the customers she has are rude and never say thank you.

Next week my wife will be doing 91 hours at least on nights.

So yes I think they thouroughly deserve a good pension, I genually did not realise how hard hospital doctors work before I met Mrs FD.

Edit: Saxabar I refer you to my point about working additional hours for nothing above. I think everyone would agree that the out of ours GP work was a bit of a cock up.

Interesting discussion with a Pensions consultant on R4 Today programme this morning

He pointed out that a doctor on the median wage of just under £120k will pay paarox 8.5% of thier wage into the pension pot

However due to tax relief at the higher rate, this actually equated to a net contribusion of 5.1% into the pot

By comparison, a nurse on the median wage has a net contribution after tax relief (which due to the lower wage is therefore at the standard rate) of 5.2%

Pesky thing them facts, aren’t they!

By the way – has anybody noticed that the government has taken on an additional 4000 doctors since the election? Strange we’ve not heard about that one on the news…

I think they should take their share of pain; they bang on about how much training it takes but I don’t see the more qualified vets or dentists bleating. And they’re miserable jobs too!

My experience with GPs over the years has been dismal, it seems a resting ground for the less competent doctors where they can hide. Hospital docs on the other hand seem to be more competent in general, perhaps because there is more supervision there.

Zero sympathy. If you don’t like it, do something else.

Interesting discussion with a Pensions consultant on R4 Today programme this morning

I heard that interview/roasting this morning too, I bet the poor guy wished he’d stayed in bed. 😀

However, that type of Pension feels completely reasonable to me.

* My wife got £25k of debt training to be a Doctor.
* Continues to have to pay £1k + per year out of own pocket for training.
* We have had to fully relocate in the country in order for her to continue her training, and will probably have to do so at least one more time before she becomes a consultant (most hospital doctors are less lucky and only get 1 year contracts)
* Every year she gets reassigned to a new hospital (with only 2 months notice) which can mean anything up to a 2 hour commute each way (after you have worked a 12hr + shift) I am having to go part time to accomodate the latest change.
* Pay has been slowly erroded over the last few years (hospital doctors dont earn anything like the money being talked about above) and when you work out the pro rata value it really is quite poor.
* The government will not employ enough hospital doctors so those doctors there are struggle to maintain a service, and their training suffers.
* Doctors are legally limited to 48hrs per week, however because of the point above they end up working 60+ per week unpaid and unpensioned. She routinely gets asked to come in on holidays, and not to use annual leave allocations.
* Most of the customers she has are rude and never say thank you.

If those reasons you cited are why you consider such a pension appropriate, then I’d suggest that most people leaving university and working hard also entitled to a similar pension.

It might be hard work (both university and in the job), but the pay reflects this. It’s the same in most professions.

To clarify – the contribution will soon be 14% for those on 120k and nearer 28% for gp types.