Yep, but what I am saying is that if you want more new cyclists then you need traffic-free paths away from the road. And more cyclists benefits everyone, including those using the road.

How many folk would let their kids ride 2 miles to school on the road on their own?

Partly because of the paranoia spread by the media and the liberal sprinkling of cycle lanes. Plenty of people round here cycle to school fairly large distances, with no specific cycle lanes. It’s all about perceived risk and AFAIK the actual risk of cycling on the road has gone DOWN from when I was a kid, but it’s been a while since I saw the numbers so I’d be willing to back down on that one.

Plenty of people round here cycle to school fairly large distances, with no specific cycle lanes.

Good, but if there were traffic-free cycle paths available to them do you think that number would go up or down?

I agree perceived risk is a problem though.
It is a real issue for cycling safety campaigns to say on one hand, “we need safer cycling facilities” but on the other “the risk has gone down”

MSP – Member The problem with e-petitions are that they are basically a political “card trick” make people believe they are getting involved in politics, and stop them from really getting involved and doing something worthwhile.

If you read the rest of the post, I did suggest that we use all possible routes, not just this one alone.

Graham. UK cities are far more crowded than many European ones. There is less space, population density is high but crucially CAR density is very high. We also have hedges down the sides of many of our suburban and rural roads, which makes widening them difficult.

Our road network is not made from planned modern roads mostly, it’s ancient tracks that have been surfaced. These are major problems both in terms of planning and cost.

Car density is highest in the UK I think too which means there’s more pressure on more of the network.

The answer is to increase the number of cyclists using the roads until that becomes “normal”,

And how many more cycling RTA victims will it take to reach this nirvana?

Honestly there is no need for cycle lanes in cities. Education would be much better. With the 3 foot rule and some proper targeting on people breaking this rule.
Once drivers will learn that overtaking to be the first to queue at a traffic light is useless things will move forward. On the other hand, cyclist flitering to be the first at the traffic light is IMHO very stupid.

As for lack of space-make space ,take it from the cars. Holland did and it is on of the most crowded countries in Europe. And as for cost,make the money available.We just splurged £9 billion on the Olympics whos elegacy is supposed to be more participation in sport and exercise.
Th eproblem is the vested interests big business car manufacturers etc have a bigger voice than us so win out,hence the reason why CM in the other thread try and reclaim the roads.

nick1962 – Member – Quote
As for lack of space-make space ,take it from the cars. Holland did and it

[i]In a few locations.[/i] Go into the centre of the cities and it’s shared use. Head out of the cities and it’s normal roads just like we have.

population density is high

As it is in the Netherlands. They are right behind England in the top 10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density

but crucially CAR density is very high

Circular argument. Car density is high, because car dependency is high, because cycling (and walking) is not a serious alternative.

To reverse that you need to build cycling and walking infrastructure.

Our road network is not made from planned modern roads mostly, it’s ancient tracks that have been surfaced. These are major problems both in terms of planning and cost.

As there were in other countries. Our history is not unique.

NOT the answer

So what is then?

There’s no point in saying suggestions for improvements are no good but not suggesting alternatives.

wisepranker – Member – Quote
> NOT the answer
So what is then?

There’s no point in saying suggestions for improvements are no good but not suggesting alternatives.Try reading the rest of the thread 🙄

GrahamS – Member
Our road network is not made from planned modern roads mostly, it’s ancient tracks that have been surfaced. These are major problems both in terms of planning and cost.
As there were in other countries. Our history is not unique.

What we need is a massive war that destroys much or our current city infrastructure….

What we need is a massive war that destroys much or our current city infrastructure….

We have fought in the same wars as the rest of Europe.

cycle lane provisions were started after most of the rebuilding work had been done in Holland and Germany, and the towns and cities are still much the same as the UK, they generally were not planned with cycling in mind then, although it takes a greater planning priority now.

I think America can help with the war, they seem to pick on everyone else, why not us

Look at the infrastructure photos on this page:
http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/photos.html

Watch this video:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_znwWroGM[/video]

Almost every single child at that school cycles there. Why?

At this secondary school they have 850 parking spaces for the 725 pupils.

In winter the rate of pupils cycling sometimes drops to 95%!

Bike paths are good for the family pootle to the park etc.
Some how I dont see them practical for the roadies..

I think that stiffer sentences for drivers found guilty of killing/injuring cyclist through reckless driving.
How many times do you read about a person killing a cyclist and getting off because they claimed a SMIDSY … a cruel one was recently when a driver forced a cyclist off the road coming into a traffic island and then got off because the cyclist wasnt wearing a helmet … insane 🙁

Bike paths are good for the family pootle to the park etc.
Some how I dont see them practical for the roadies..

Roadies are not the target audience. They cycle already.

How many times do you read about a person killing a cyclist and getting off because they claimed a SMIDSY ..

Elizabeth Brown: an experienced triathlete cycling to work along a long straight road, wearing high-viz and helmet, on a clear day, she was struck from behind by a van at 60mph and killed.

SMIDSY. Van driver acquitted of “death by careless driving”. 😡

Grahams hits the nail on the head.
That school probably has about 1000+ less car school runs every day.
druidh
War not required to destroy a city’s transport infrastucture just look at Edinburgh 😉

Actually Edinburgh is a great example. They’ve somehow, against public will and at huge expense, made room for a tram through medieval streets.

That space could have been dedicated, segregated cycle lane at a tiny fraction of the cost.

grahams

you read my next post.Similar thing in MCR and Sheffield.They managed to fit trams there too elbowing out the cars.

At the end of the day the majority of the road infrastructure in the UK was paid for by all taxpayers not just by drivers and certainly not by car manufacturers.Lets reclaim some of that road space back for cyclists and spend a bit of cash on making our journeys safer.
Not much to ask imho

Honestly there is no need for cycle lanes in cities. Education would be much better

For sure, the Dutch have it completely wrong yah? It just doesn’t seem to have had any impact on cycle use or safety there does it?

Yet increasing numbers on the London roads leading to increasing casualties.

There are still sport cyclists in Holland. They still seem to have world class riders winning medals. You don’t need to worry about not being able to have your weekend club run.

It just doesn’t seem to have had any impact on cycle use or safety there does it?

Difficult to say. Do people cycle because of the facilities, or are the facilities there because people cycle?

Our history is not unique.

Nothing to do with the war, it’s about social history.

In Helsinki for instance, most of roads are really wide and have cycle paths alongside the pavements, or are dual use. The centre of the city was only built in the 18th century, when wide boulevards were popular, and the suburbs were built in the 1950s onwards, because before that most people lived in the countryside and it was only after the war that people migrated en masse to the cities.

I’m not saying nothing can be done in the UK, but we have a unique set of circumstances because our social and economic history is different, like most countries. Not all European cities are cycling paradises, are they?

Where else is bad for cycling?

Yet increasing numbers on the London roads leading to increasing casualties

Dunno about London but:

Year kms cycled (billion) Deaths Deaths per billion km

1990 5.3 256 48.3
1991 5.2 242 46.8
1992 4.7 204 43.1
1993 4.0 186 46.4
1994 4.0 172 42.8
1995 4.1 213 51.4
1996 4.1 203 49.8
1997 4.1 183 44.8
1998 4.0 158 40.0
1999 4.1 172 42.2
2000 4.2 127 30.5
2001 4.2 138 32.6
2002 4.4 130 29.4
2003 4.5 114 25.3
2004 4.2 134 31.8
2005 4.4 148 33.4
2006 4.6 146 31.7
2007 4.2 136 32.4
2008 4.7 115 24.5
2009 5.0 104 20.8
2010 5.0 111 22.2

The trams have not elbowed out cars here in Sheffield, they run in traffic. In fact very little room has been made for them, they’ve just been plonked on top of the existing network adding to busier roads

Difficult to say. Do people cycle because of the facilities, or are the facilities there because people cycle?

They built new facilities, from the mid-1970s onwards on the back of the ”Stop de Kindermoord” (“Stop the Child Murder”) campaign, and rates of cycling sky-rocketed.

Interested to see how they did that.

Did they already have the space? Or did they have to compulsorily purchase strips of land?

Interested to see how they did that.

Potted history:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o[/video]

Did they already have the space? Or did they have to compulsorily purchase strips of land?

Bit of everything I think. Compulsory purchases. Car space sacrificed. Roads redesigned and rebuilt.

That was in the 70s though, far less car pressure.

Do you really think it’s at all feasible to create cycling facilities like that across Britain? The cost would be astronomical. I can’t imagine how it would happen really.

That was in the 70s though, far less car pressure.

They are still building new ones now though.

Do you really think it’s at all feasible to create cycling facilities like that across Britain?

Yes. But not in the current political climate. It requires a major change of attitude.

The cost would be astronomical.

It would. But more than high-speed rail link? More than the Channel Tunnel? More than is spent on new roads every year? More than health care bill for the 200,000 injured on our roads every year + the rising obesity epidemic?

More than *whisper* the Olympics?

Do you really think it’s at all feasible to create cycling facilities like that across Britain? The cost would be astronomical. I can’t imagine how it would happen really.

I don’t think you should let a lack of imagination work against you. There are better cycle facilities being put in American Cities than in the UK

Yes – a LOT more. Some road in the UK haven’t been upgraded to two-carraigeway yet.

Yes. But not in the current political climate. It requires a major change of attitude.

Oh yeah, that.

Whilst we’re at it we can redistribute wealth, make growth sustainable and re-populate Britain’s forests.

It’d be nice, wouldn’t it?

More than *whisper* the Olympics?

Much much more, probably. And as for obesity – this wouldn’t cure obesity, not by a long shot. You’re talking about changing the personal attitudes of a nation. Massive challenge, and it’ll take decades if not centuries.

There are better cycle facilities being put in American Cities than in the UK

How many American cities have you been to? If you think cyclists have it bad here, you’d be stunned at people’s attitudes in the US.

There are miles and miles of cycle tracks in Livingston. As a New Town, it was possible to incorporate them from day 1 and they’ve (generally) kept that up as it has expanded. When I cycle through Livingston, I see far fewer cyclists than I do in Edinburgh. I can only conclude that there is something other than cycle-lane provision influencing the population.

Incidentally, I saw very few cyclists on the lovely cycle facilities in Helsinki. Some, but no more than you’d see in any UK city.

In Munich there were a fair few, mostly tootling grannies.

When I cycle through Livingston, I see far fewer cyclists than I do in Edinburgh. I can only conclude that there is something other than cycle-lane provision influencing the population.

I worked in Livingston for a while. Used to get the train there (with bike) then cycle from the train station to work.
My (probably unfair) impression was the town was just one big industrial estate with a hundred roundabouts.

You’ll obviously see more cyclists in Edinburgh because the population is far higher (~450,000). The resident population of Livingston is fairly small (27,000) and it’s not an easy place for non-residents to cycle to.

That’s not a great comparison druidh…..for a start what’s the population difference between the two places? How difficult is it to get from one side of Livingston to the other by car during peak traffic periods? Is there a huge student population in Livingston?

Oh yeah, that.

Whilst we’re at it we can redistribute wealth, make growth sustainable and re-populate Britain’s forests.

It’d be nice, wouldn’t it?

Ah always the cynic. 😀

That change of attitude did happen in the Netherlands. It can happen here. People just need to be shown the choice and given a chance to make their voice heard.

GrahamS – Member – Quote
My (probably unfair) impression was the town was just one big industrial estate with a hundred roundabouts.

Close 🙂 But there are lots and lots of houses and there are schools and shopping areas and sports facilities.

The resident population of Livingston is fairly small (27,000) (60,000) and it’s not an easy place for non-residents to cycle to.

GrahamS – Member
That change of attitude did happen in the Netherlands. It can happen here. People just need to be shown the choice and given a chance to make their voice heard.

Read the Delft Study. It shows that accident rates on non-segregated roads actually increased after the increase in cycle lane provision.