Hmm, I think I'm with ernie; you're not really clued up enough to argue with. Night.

Zulu? You sum up, both yourself and the party you will be voting for(winning by a huge majority), for being a smug selfish arrogant shower.
You're welcome to one-another.

Healthcare spending – I'm a bit confused, the US spends the biggest %age of it's GDP on healthcare but don't have an NHS – so does this include private exenditure? Strangely the US has a lower average life expectancy than we have here.

Mudshark – yes the % I quote include private and state healthcare. The UKs private is a tiny % of the total.

The USA spends twice as much as us – to cover 70% of the population. Not only does the USA have a lower life expectancy but also higher child mortality rates.

TJ – you allowed yourself to fall victim to absolutely classic Labrat tactics. When Ratty finds himself on dodgy ground he invariably uses diversionary tactics and moves the argument into another area, and then another area, and so on. That's why basically I can't be arsed to argue with him.

In this case he got you bogged down in arguing over the NHS (and remember his guru is Dan Hannan who thinks we should adopt the US model) And you fell for it, hook line and sinker.

You should have stuck to the original subject mate, which was "have the Tories got any solutions ?" And his initial comment which was, that Cameron is just a mask for the Tories and that the people pulling his strings have their own agenda. As he stated here :

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Cameron bears the classic politicians curse, like McBroon, of being the least offensive option to all wings of the party.

Fortunately the people pulling his strings are somewhat more embedded in the principles of Libertarian Conservatism than he appears to be.

He really really didn't like it, when I pointed out that by "Libertarian Conservatism" he meant Dan Hannan, the 'man with The Plan', and I went on to comprehensively denounce his much-loved messiah.

In fact he accused me of a, quote : "classic 'beware the bogeyman' scare tactic"
despite the fact that he had unbelievably a few hours earlier himself said, quote :

"For all who worry about what damage the tories could do if they get in, I need only offer three horrifying words – Prime Minister Mandelson "

Knowing full well that it is impossible for Mandelson, as a peer in the House of Lords, to become Prime Minister. Still, nothing quote like trying to scare people, eh ?

Labrat really isn't worth arguing with apart for exposing his ridiculous right-wing Tory views. And of course the 'entertainment value' 8)

Ernie, you seem to think that I get no entertainment value from winding up the Guardianistas 😉

Anyways, back on topic ……… do Conservatives ever have the solutions ?

Well I noticed that yesterday, the Greek people gave the Socialists a landslide victory in a general election and kicked out the Greek Conservative government.

Because the Greek Conservatives after years in power have screwed up the Greek economy so much, that Greek national debt as percentage of GDP, is now almost TWICE that of Britain – yes TWICE.

Now of course some will try to dismiss that by saying that it wasn't the fault of conservative policies, it was all the fault of Greece being in the Eurozone, or Greece unlike Britain, being a small and weak economy, or other such like bollox.

But the United States, which has the largest economy in the world, and is the obviously also the richest country in the world, has also had a Conservative government following conservative policies. And when G W Bush left the Whitehouse a few months ago, the US had a national debt HIGHER as percentage of GDP, than Britain. Yes higher……… quite how they managed that, considering the US government doesn't spend any money on it's own people, is frankly beyond me.

Right-wing conservationism is never the solution. It never has been, and it never will be. Not here, nor anywhere else.

Ernie, you seem to think that I get no entertainment value from winding up the Guardianistas

Well I bleedin hope you get something out of it Ratty.
Otherwise, it can't be much fun talking bollox all the time 😐

TBH TJ, you should be first in the cull of NHS workers. Your job is obviously not that important or needed as you seem to be on here most of the time.

Apologies for butting in, but this implication that everyone in the NHS is lazy gets my goat. My missus works in the NHS (drug worker) and works so bloody hard that I think if I had to do half of what she does I'd be off with permanent stress.

And from what I know, TJ is right. The main thing holding the NHS back is lack of/insecurity of funding and interference by politicians. If the clinicians and managers were left to do their job free from interference with adequate, secure long-term funding, then the NHS would be second to none.

The main thing holding the NHS back is lack of/insecurity of funding and interference by politicians. If the clinicians and managers were left to do their job free from interference with adequate, secure long-term funding, then the NHS would be second to none.

If you don't want politicians interfering with the day to day running of the NHS then you won't be wanting to vote for Labour then, will you, as they attempt to micromanage everything.

TJ I thank you for being a public servant and dedicating your life to helping others.

If you don't want politicians interfering with the day to day running of the NHS then you won't be wanting to vote for Labour then, will you, as they attempt to micromanage everything.

Well seeing as politicians of any colour will be interfering, I think I'd rather have the ones who guarantee the funding and keep it under state control than those who's natural urge is to palm it off into the private sector so that they and their mates in the private health companies can cream off a tidy profit.

Well I bleedin hope you get something out of it Ratty.
Otherwise, it can't be much fun talking bollox all the time

Hello pot, this is kettle, colour check, over 😆

Oh this is fun ……..

But don't you think that you accusing the pot of calling the kettle black is a case of the pot calling the kettle black ?

Anyways …… is that it ? Are you not going to bother making any more 'political' comments ? ………… are we out in the playground now ?

That suit full **** all was on the radio this morning, pontificating that our inner cities were like The Wire because of our broken society and benefit dependent culture.
I like the irony that we should vote in a Tory govt because the Labour govt haven't been able to heal the mess that the last Tory govt made. Makes a lot of sense that.

Though it rather clashes with my notions of personal liberty… making everybody do a year's national service as an auxiliary nurse would do wonders for the healthcare debate (yes, even given that we have already paid for the NHS thru' taxation, and – yes – even given our own positive/negative experiences as patients). Then we could have a properly informed discussion and (perhaps) see the end of Daily Hate media sensationalism and these endless games of political football (during which, as TJ says, neither side has covered themselves in glory).

It might open a few eyes… not least as to what the NHS can do well (particularly in terms of critical care) and where there are problems (including those common to all developed healthcare systems). Dan Hannan's political grandstanding angered me immensely – I doubt he has the slightest idea of what is involved in getting a rapidly exsanguinating patient into theatre, or repeatedly cleaning up the distressed and incontinent. But why bother with the real world – when you can just spout vague platitudes about "the market"? 👿

Do you know this thread actually gives me hope for the future of this country?

Have you seen this today? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8289798.stm

Apparently the wussack is planning to take £230 from every individual on incapacity benefit to pay for his plan to get the country back to work. (His numbers £600,000,000 to pay for the plan, divided by 2.6 million folk on the benefit = £230).

This leads me to one of a number of conclusions: –

a) He is a liar
b) He is incompetent
c) There is a reason why they have avoided publishing any detailed plans

My eldest brother is on the benefit after a massive nervous breakdown that necessitated 18 months as an inpatient in a secure unit. It took my other brother and I 6 – 9 months to get it sorted out and all of that time we were underpinning his finances personally.

So on the other hand we have the likes of Fred Goodwin behaving in a totally cavalier and dare I say corrupt manner and costing the taxpayer some £32 billion! Surely a more pertinent pronouncement would be along the lines of what they plan to do about their thieving cronies in those areas who got us into the mess in the first instance, rather than doing the usual of picking on those in society least able to defend themselves.

on the other hand we have the likes of Fred Goodwin behaving in a totally cavalier and dare I say corrupt manner and costing the taxpayer some £32 billion! Surely a more pertinent pronouncement would be along the lines of what they plan to do about their thieving cronies in those areas who got us into the mess in the first instance

Whose cronies?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/21/sir-fred-goodwin-gordon-brown

Now look, don't get me wrong I'm not a particular fan of the Tories – but Labour have got to go.

Surely a more pertinent pronouncement would be along the lines of what they plan to do about their thieving cronies

This story pretty much sums up the state of UK politics. I suspect even Flashy might be embarrassed by it (given the role of the Conservatives).

I'd say Guy Hands is a pretty big **** off benefit cheat – as are most PFI consortia (and any management con.sultants seconded to DoH/MOD).

Apparently the wussack is planning to take £230 from every individual on incapacity benefit to pay for his plan to get the country back to work. (His numbers £600,000,000 to pay for the plan, divided by 2.6 million folk on the benefit = £230).

Or take 17.75% of people off incapacity benefit to pay for his plan, and leave the other 82.25% unaffected.
0.1775 * 2600000 * 25 * 52 = 599950000

Of course when I say 'unaffected', that's ignoring the personal stress of going through the process of justifying why they're incapacitated and of course the administrative costs of doing this assessment.

I wonder how long it'll be before the Tories tear themselves to pieces over Europe? – one half of the party trying not to mention it with the other half doing their best to make it a big issue

Apparently certain Tory ministers are (in private, obviously) saying that they know they'll be the most unpopular government ever within 6 months of taking office

They are gleefully relishing the prospect of taking an axe to the public services. They're going to make Thatcher look like Bevan.

Don't forget also that Osborne called the whole economic situation totally wrong after the banking collapse. His attitude being to just let things take their course. Bailing out the banks sticks in everyone's craw (and rightfully so), but can you imagine the state we'd be in if the entire banking system had gone under. Exactly what would have happened if Cameron had been in number 10 last year. And if the tories can get it so wrong on the economy, what exactly are they good for?

Whose cronies?

The Tories….. you know Cameron, Osborne, Blair etc etc

They're going to make Thatcher look like Bevan.

To be fair, New Labour have had a pretty good go at that. The Blair/Brown governments have been far more right-wing than Thatcher ever was. She certainly didn't undermine the NHS as much as New Labour have.

Most of the policies such as performance targets etc were introduced by John Major, but New Labour have built on them :

"When New Labour came to power in 1997, it held Old Labour votes by pledging to do away with the internal market, GP fund-holding and other libertarian policies. Instead, New Labour's plans for modernisation of the NHS are consolidating and extending the Conservative reforms and business ethos. It has continued the fragmentation and out-sourcing of services, such as medical supplies"

Although obviously now the Tories are even more right-wing.

That was the beauty of the New Labour strategy, and one of the reasons why it worked so well. By moving further and further to the right, New Labour forcibly pushed the Tories even further to the right – well the Conservative Party was never going to attack the Labour Party from a left-wing prospective, was it ?

Which of course made the Tories even more unelectable. And ensured that traditional Labour voters wouldn't dare to abandon Labour at elections. They won 3 elections on the back of that strategy. Unfortunately the strategy isn't working any more. And even more unfortunately, the Tory Party is now extremely right-wing.

but do the torries have the balls to hold a referendum on eu membership?

but do the torries have the balls to hold a referendum on eu membership?

Why would they do that ?

The Conservative government categorically refused to hold a referendum before Britain joined the European Economic Community in 1973.

So presumably continued membership is not dependant on specific support from the British people ?

sorry i meant a referndum on ratifying the lisbon treaty and taking us up thext rung in the federalist ladder like theyve been harassing labour to do?

I think they're hoping the Czechs help them out with that

Knowing full well that it is impossible for Mandelson, as a peer in the House of Lords, to become Prime Minister.

Our constitution being unwritten, makes no mention of whether a serving member of the House of Lords can or can't be Prime Minister, it's just recent convention that he/she's a serving MP. I don't think the post even actually exists in the strictest sense of the word.

Interesting article on Goodwin above. Can't wait to read his obituary though.

whats the chance that this will run to election day?

Why would they do that ?

The Conservative government categorically refused to hold a referendum before Britain joined the European Economic Community in 1973.

So presumably continued membership is not dependant on specific support from the British people ?

I suppose their position would be that 36 years ago a Tory government was in favour of joining a free trade community (the old EEC) and that they are still in favour of that, just not everything else that comes with the modern full fat EU. You can agree or disagree, but it's not an illogical position.

We all know it was Labour's policy to leave the EEC in the 80's right?

I beleive the way it works is that you elect people to represent you, and then they implement the policies you elected them to fulfil. At the and of their term you vote for someone else if you are unhappy. So far I don't think anyone has voted for getting out of Europe in any sense, and throughout much of the time we've been in we've had the power of veto.

So any chance we can decide that we're either all in or all out any time soon?

…..36 years ago a Tory government was in favour of joining a free trade community (the old EEC)

Oh I see. They didn't bother with a referendum 36 years ago because they were "in favour" of joining the EEC.
After all, it might have gone against them.

But now that they are not so sure, a referendum might be a good idea ?

And you think that is a "logical position" ? Well I guess it could be. If you're a Tory.

Could you run it as "people are stupid, so if the question is economics then no referendum is needed, but people love their country, so if the question is sovereignty then a referendum is needed"?

I ask only in the spirit of conservative logical enquiry? 😉

going by some of the posts in the talkback here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6861460.ece

there is an awful lot of anger about ratifying the lisbon treaty europe