The Annual Running thread – beginners/ultras/whatever

@turboferret, that is a heart breaking 4 seconds. Does that mean you have to run another quick marathon in time for next years event?
I like the idea of a ShakeDry jacket, but have 2 concerns. The first is obviously the cost, the second is that I generally wear a pack on long runs and am concerned about abrasion and rubbing on such a light fabric.

@mrb123, that Patagonia Airshed Pro looks interesting, thanks.

@sadexpunk<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>I</span>

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> tried using music when I ran but it just didn’t keep me occupied. I now use podcasts. Try the pb ones or there’s tons of other stuff out there – it’s just seeing what you like. I don’t always take it all in but that depends on how much I’m trying to breathe through my eyes..</span>

I’m no expert by any means but I recently updated my Garmin to a fr255 which I think will do what you want in terms of music control and Strava etc. There is also a music version that allows you to store music on the watch itself if you wanted that option. Take a look at dcrainmaker for more information. This thing also gives me suggested runs that I’m following and uses your heart rate, so will suggest a longer effort at a lower rate one day and a shorter effort at higher rates another for instance, and generally badgers you in to sticking to it when you kick it off. You can also give it a target for a specific event and it will come up with a training program according to your calendar. Between the thing beeping at me for heart rate, the podcasts, and mixing up locations/routes I don’t find running boring at all now.

@lunge Gore specifically say not to wear a pack with that jacket, something which I was unaware of for the first year, and saw no deterioration as a result.  However, I was always wearing a small light one, and never muddy etc, so your mileage may vary… I have been very impressed with the durability, especially as my son christened it my bin-bag jacket 🙂

If I want to start from the Championships, then it’s either sub 2:40 marathon or sub 72:30 half before the end of the year.  Don’t fancy another marathon, so I’ll probably look for a half.  The difference between being the fastest in the red start, and being in amongst lots of fast folk to tuck in with and share the load is significant.  I ran my first London in 2016 off red and led it for a few km, which was a novelty.

At a slower pace to the above, I finished my first official ultra this weekend (Lakes in a Day).

Good things- feet were fine (one sore toenail after finishing I can live with), ate really well, nice route, good chats with fellow runners (ultras are super friendly compared to triathlon!).

Things to work on- faffing with jacket on/off in the wind/rain/climb/decent pattern, drinking more, faffing at feed stations rather than picking things up and carrying on.

Inov8 x-talon 255 (or perhaps old fashioned Walsh). Pondering a fair to keep running on soft ground over the winter, but have to fit in a couple of km road to get there. Are the 8mm mud soles too sketchy on the blacktop to consider? Any recommendations/confirm etc from anyone?

At a slower pace to the above, I finished my first official ultra this weekend (Lakes in a Day).

Good things- feet were fine (one sore toenail after finishing I can live with), ate really well, nice route, good chats with fellow runners (ultras are super friendly compared to triathlon!)

Things to work on- faffing with jacket on/off in the wind/rain/climb/decent pattern, drinking more, faffing at feed stations rather than picking things up and carrying on

Nice one! I didn’t know that was happening. There was lots going on I the lakes on Saturday: a bofra race in wasdale and I was doing the langdale horseshoe: 450 runners, I finished at the top of the bottom half. Weather was great but brutal race. Esk crags were sharp, slippery. Knee deep bogs, bowfell boulder field. Just really hard terrain

I’d not done the ‘bad step’ at crinkle crags before. It was one of those events where there were long stretches of unpleasantness and exhaustion but two days later I’m still thinking about it and can’t wait to get back on the fells

Was wearing inov8 mudclaw s 300s like most other fell runners it seems. Bit dodgy on wet rocks but plenty of soft ground to make it worthwhile. Not sure of the best shoes but no road at all apart from the last 100m so probably best compromise

Hard luck turbo, mental agility at the tail end of a marathon is always a real struggle, for me anyway. Still an impressive time!

Inov8 x-talon 255 (or perhaps old fashioned Walsh). Pondering a fair to keep running on soft ground over the winter, but have to fit in a couple of km road to get there. Are the 8mm mud soles too sketchy on the blacktop to consider? Any recommendations/confirm etc from anyone<

Not used them but fair few runners had them on on Saturday, no road running though. As a less luggy mudclaw surely they’ll be okay on the road

@huntingtonduck

X Talon and Mudclaw are tolerable on the road but not great. I’ve got Saucony Peregrine, these have 5mm cleats and are great on Lakes wet rock, mud and bog. They are a much better all rounder, especially on longer runs, I feel a bit beaten up by the Talons on harder ground and long road sections. I even tried the new X Talon Ultra, just sold them on Ebay!

@alwillis

Awesome, I did this last year, was my first 50 miler. Great fun. You definitely had some better weather for it. Did they have pizza at the ambleside checkpoint?

@turboferret – go and crush a half somehwhere, as I reckon the champs time is going to drop again to 2:35 (Not that that would be an issue for you in peak form).
I’ve got my GFA in for next April, but they said once the champ quali times are released if I’m (still) under I should be able to swap.
I missed out for this years as I got injured the day before last years and I’d not got another marathon time and my half time was 23 seconds shy of the quali (it had been recently changed down to the 72:30) so I missed out. Should be there next year though if my ‘new’ injury improves by then.

I’ve found all fell shoes fine for a few km on tarmac, don’t think it will drastically wear down the studs. As mentioned above, on firmer ground (and even mud) the Peregrine’s are a good shoe. Once you’ve got used to the increased stack height you wonder why stripped down fell shoes are any better! They’re quite firmly cushioned and the cushioning will last longer on firm trails. I’d use them as a training shoe on the fells, but Talons for racing.

I did Langdale on Saturday too, was meant to be in self-preservation mode as its the relays on Saturday, but still raced off. Was meant to take the ‘Safe’ line and avoid the bad step, but chose the worst route off and scrambled down steep rock and grass between the main path and bad step. Took the descents off Bow Fell and Pike O Blisco dead steady and probably lost quite a few places, but I was happy overall as my previous champs results were all better.

That trod under Esk Pike was horrendous!

@alanf a half in the next couple of months is the plan, I’ve entered GFA as a backup, hopefully upgrade as you’re planning on doing so.  It’s a little annoying that the qualifying window is so small, even for GFA it was a year, I’m sure it has been more like 18 months in the past.

The qualifying period for the 2023 TCS London Marathon began on 4 October 2021 and ended at 23:59 on 2 October 2022. To have applied for a GFA place in the 2023 TCS London Marathon, you must have achieved the relevant qualifying time displayed below during the qualifying period.

That means that the GFA window opened the day after London 2021, and for the champs is anytime in 2022.

The only issue now is that after a week off after London, running 10k this morning to work, my knee is still far from right, so I really need to get some diagnosis before committing to proper training.  Would be frustrating to be out for an XC season which starts next weekend, but have to look long-term…

Also:
I have a Good for Age entry – can I upgrade this to a Championship entry?

There will be no upgrade process for the 2023 TCS London Marathon.

@turboferret – frustrating is not the word.
In terms of the upgrade – I emailed the helpteam and they told me to enter GFA and they would then look at changing to champs ‘once’ the times were finalised. Hopefully they stay as the are and I’m in but you never know.

@pieface good to hear

I was disappointed with my placing as my late season training had apparently been going well and my stamina was much improved but I need to work on my climbing as I was overtaken by so many on every climb. It was like I was going backwards

I had a pretty advanced position after stickle tarn then the big climb up to pave ark was so hard for me

Descending seemed to be where id pull some places back until last descent when I was gassed out. The fast guys (and girls) are just monsters. I can’t get my head around 2 hours over that terrain. They were finishing just as I was bimbling down the bad step!

I’ll have to do more specific fell run training, I’ve been laying off to spare my Achilles

Next race is tour of pendle

@fingerbang my next race is Tour of Pendle too! You’ll definitley need your uppy / downy training for that, though the terrain is probably much more forgiving.

Thanks ! Checking the perigrines

Thanks, will check out the perigines

Tour of Pendle is a tough day out! Good luck with that.

My running has been pretty much non-existent this year. Was injured (long term piriformis syndrome) but convinced myself to do Grasmere Guides race at the end of August and then got more injured (tendon in foot that’s been playing up since my Joss Naylor Challenge). I’ve ‘run’ about 4 times in the last month. Since turning 60 at start of Sept it’s like my body has thrown a switch to ‘disintegrate mode’. Had my first ever dose of Covid last week, the latest thing. I did a 3 mile trot last night and that will have to serve as training for doing Leg 1 of the FRA Relays at Carnethy at weekend! What could possibly go wrong?!

@alwillis – well done on LIAD, you’ll have definitely passed me at one point!*

And yes, you can lose a lot of time eating/faffing at the feeds – I took a little lightweight ‘musette’ bag last year, moved through the feed and stuck what I wanted into that, then walked along the road eating/packing.

*(I was one of the safety team on the river crossing 😉 )

Anyone here any experience with Inov8 Orocs?

Just for handling icy ground where Kahtoola microspikes or crampons would be a bit much.

I know from owning similar shoes before the cost/benefit ratio.

@Piemonster I have the Articlaw which are basically the same. I bought them a few years ago, and used them alot the winter before last, probably continuously for a few weeks when the snow on the trails had fawed and turned to ice, and stayed there for weeks, and they were brilliant. If yiou can afford them, its worth having pair for those odd winters, they’re ok off ice / snow too, though a bit noisy.

I also have the Arctic Claws. Pete Blands were selling them off a few years ago. When it’s icy they are the mutts nuts. ‘A bit noisy’ is an understatement!

Yeh, they’re all noisy.

My old shoes had these studs, imagine the noise would be about the same ball park.

Is there anyone running an OMM trail orienteering type series these days? OMM are just one main event now and I’m sure this style of event used to be more popular but I can’t see much around at the minute.

Despite not being a runner I’ve somehow agreed to do an ultra next year so thought I’d try and do a few of these as build-up events but not having any luck at the minute.

Is there such a thing as a shoe which has some grip on damp chalky/muddy Chiltern trails?
Currently got some Hoka SpeedGoat 4’s which are comfortable but lacking in grip on the slippy stuff.

Cheers Pieface and MrSparkle, I think im going to take a punt. They might prove a little narrow, which I cant find out the normal way by wearing them about the house so a bit of a gamble.

I posted around this time last year, complaining about shin splints. I pretty much gave up running at that point – frustrated with it. And focused solely on bike again.

But I’m feeling the urge to try again, because I love running. And keen to hear any tips for new runners, from you very knowledgeable, passionate lot.

I have started out on the Nike Run Club (NRC) 4 week starter plan, today will be the 3rd week of that. So far I’m loving being back on my feet. I would link to it, but it’s only in the app. It’s a mix of easy/recovery runs, longer easy runs, and some basic speed/interval runs.

Last year I did the C25K, which was OK, but I fancied trying something different, and liked that the NRC plan went straight in with some easy running, rather than walk/run for weeks on end.

Brief background; The only sport I do is cycling (and walking), mostly road, 50/25/25 road/gravel/MTB. A few years ago I was quite an accomplished time trialist, I was pretty fit (>4.5w/kg), and have the mentality to turn myself inside out. I have a spaniel, so a lot of walking, all on trails/hills around my area. I’d love to end up in a situation where I can go for hilly trail runs with the dog!

But, this would be my third attempt at becoming a runner, after two previous failures through beginner injuries/mistakes (too much too soon). The attempt prior to the shin splints, I developed runners’ knee, which was agony, and prevented me even riding and walking.

I have accompanied the NRC beginner plan with some basic body weight exercises for stabilisation muscles which probably are weak; clams, single legs dips etc. But I know the bones, tendons and connective tissues take a lot longer to adapt to running, and this is probably where it goes wrong for most new runners.

So, what would your tips be, or guidance for a new runner, who already has good cardio?

Also, I am intentionally not recording my running on Strava.

Is there such a thing as a shoe which has some grip on damp chalky/muddy Chiltern trails?

There aren’t to many shoes that’ll grip on that.
I hear good things about the grip Innov8 shoes, but have no personal experience.

Re shoes i use the SPeedgoat 4. They are so comfortable but not my choice when the conditions aren’t great. La Sportiva Mutant are also very comfortable, but a lot better in the wet and mud.

Re shin splints, i would be looking at glute strength. In particular glue med. Jeff Cavaleres Athlean X videos on Youtube are great.

Chilterns mud, best I found for that was Walsh PBs, stud pattern sheds mud, and the side profile or the uppers does a reasonable job on not holding on to it either. Not everyones cup of tea mind you.

Inov8 X Talon 255 might be another option.

But I know the bones, tendons and connective tissues take a lot longer to adapt to running, and this is probably where it goes wrong for most new runners.

So, what would your tips be, or guidance for a new runner, who already has good cardio?

As somebody who has suffered with them a lot in my younger years (much less now after 45 years of running…) and ended up in plaster due to them, you are spot on in your analysis. Shin splints is generic term and can have many different symptoms but generally pain and tenderness around the shin, particularly the inside of the shin bone for me, and pressing in that area is incredibly painful when I have symptoms.

People will often advise the usual treatments but IME if you feel them then you need to stop or if it is in the very early stages just cutting back so that you feel no pain at all may keep them at bay. Running when you have them can start off painful but then the pain subsides into the run, only to come back much later. It is one injury that once beyond the treatable slight tenderness stage only complete cessation can cure. I find ice very helpful but as you say you just have to start very slowly and allow your body to adapt which can be frustrating.
As an aside I had been suffering with them for weeks when I was younger and was in a lot of pain but persisted and was training quite hard. I ran a 5 mile road race in 26:05 which had a very steep downhill section and a shar U turn that runners had to grab a post to swing around and stay on track. I was in so much pain after that I went to A&E the next day and due to having had them for so long they showed up on the xray (they often only show on other types of scan) as thin fractures that were trying to heal. I was a teenager at the time in my defence….

Might be worth having a look at the new (think it’s new) Recover app that’s being promoted by Strava? 30 day free trial that also gives you premium Strava access and vice versa.

Specifically for runners, it lets you identify the body areas that you’re having troubles with and provides guided exercises to help. Makes it very easy, although I’m sure that someone will point out that you can just use Google and YouTube :0)

I was thinking of trying to keep a bit more mobile through winter and wondered about taking up running. Never run before, and intended to follow C25K but the Nike Running app has a 4 week starter programme. Is c25k possibly too easy, aimed at the couch potato? 😆. Or is the build up, with walking, better advised having not been a runner?

52yo, 80kg. Has started doing yoga, also off the Nike app.

Very mindful it could go terribly wrong and I spanner myself more than I ever have in 40+ years of riding bikes…

Cheers

Your knees will almost certainly thank you for it!

The cycling fitness may well spur your body onto a level that not all of it is ready for, so that couch potato programme isn’t such a bad idea. Nothing worse than too much too soon and then losing the next two months to injury.

For a fit cyclist taking up running: just do it much more gently than seems reasonable. You can’t go too easy really. 2-3 easy short jogs a week, maybe one of them a bit harder (parkrun?). If you only do one run a week you’ll never get anywhere, if you do much more than a bit of jogging you’ll risk breaking yourself.

I did my first 10k race about one year into taking up running and it was the longest I’d ever run at that point. 18 months later I built up to a marathon which was going to be a one-off just to see if I could.

10 years later I’m a runner who cycles rather than a cyclist who runs, and have never had serious injury problems.

Just back from the first run, did 2.86 miles over the warm up, running bit and warm down.

Big query comes to mind, are you supposed to run with heels down first or toes. Usually run, subconsciously with the heel first, but tried a bit of toe/ball of the foot first and I felt like a lightweight gazelle! Seemed more efficient, but that might be psychological. Is there a “safe” way to run to avoid injury as much as possible?

Is there a “safe” way to run to avoid injury as much as possible?

No. Do more running and your body will adapt and find its own form. I wouldnt force it or try to change it.

For any new runners my advice is always take your time, don’t try and go too far or too fast too soon.
Pay attention to pain, running shouldn’t hurt.
There are loads of different running shoes out there, but don’t forget getting decent socks too! Keep your feet happy