The (e-)apocalypse is nigh!

“MTB’s are the thin end of the wedge for motorbikes”

If people are anti-bike then any ‘reason’ will be enough for a moan, there’s no need for any logic or prior examples in it. I just doubt the anti’s arguments related to electric bikes that already have access rights will have any weight or threat, that’s the only point I’m getting at.

Some general legislation clarifying the access status of E-bikes distinct from MTB’s would be a start

Pretty clear here I think, – pedalecs are bikes. Power-on-demand, twist n go etc is an electric motorbike of sorts needing registration, a license and helmet. ie all the stuff that bikes that can go on the usual ROWs don’t need.

Thing is, the technology has only just evolved to the point where they’re worthwhile. Where will they be in five or ten years?

I think that the idea of a touring type bike (not mountain bike) is a really good development.

Exploring a European city on e bike, bit of cycling / bit of electric scooter seems like a good idea.

Watching people be winched up a mountain under electric power to bomb down does irite me.

So use has a lot to do with this For me

If anyone is interested check out this innovation and its’ implications.

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.html

There is an article in the latest German Alpine Club magazine where a couple of pensioners use bikes fitted with these drives riding N-S across the Alps in a week.

Cowman

Watching people be winched up a mountain under electric power to bomb down does irite me

I do ^^^this every summer. It’s just the lecy bit is powering a chairlift or Funicular rather than my bike 😉

I can already imagine the Daily Mail headlines the first time a walker gets hit by an Ebike, regardless of the circumstance or actual person at fault…………

@Mark

not going to quote what you said as too much text, but I think you might be looking at it from a too ‘proper MTB’ viewpoint maybe? Nobody who cannot ride a bike is going to try and jump on one and go shredding the trails, but eBikes in general are a massive enabler for people with underlying health conditions to keep them (and in some cases get them) rolling on two wheels.

Think more, towpath pootling and gentle fireroads, people that can manage low output only or fatigue easily, or have reduced strength in one leg, eBikes are massive help here to enable people to go on longer rides than they would otherwise be able to, or to tackle what normal people would call a gentle climb on a green graded trail, but to them is too much to, or hard work enough normally to tire them out too quickly.

The charity I’m currently working with are setting up another Wheels for All centre here and one of the things that will play a part is eBikes for those that can manage to ride a normal bike but with reduced capacity, for others it’s tricycles, side cars, hand bikes etc.

You’re absolutely right it’s not a golden ticket for the disabled in general, but eBikes do have their place with and will help, and even if not eBikes directly the technology will trickle into trikes and handbikes as well.

Yup. They are not a golden ticket but have their place.
I was making a point against the rather dismissive blanket statement that was proliferating here and on Facebook that ‘Ebikes are for the old or disabled’. A statement, in my view, born from an ignorant understanding of how they actually work. Mind you that statement isn’t half as ignorant as the ‘they are just motorbikes’ typical statement commonly traced back to the keyboards of those who have never swung a leg over one 🙂

gotcha 😉

I know, I do wish more people (especially the naysayers) would have a go on one before making statements and judging them, by all means have an opinion, but make it an informed one!

15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides. I can see there uses though and the technology will only improve

15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides. I can see there uses though and the technology will only improve

Yeah but your reseller will usually offer ‘tuning’ to illegally uprate the system by removing the limit, my local ebike shop advertises ‘modding’ in the window. A quick google reveals Marks haibike could easily be altered to higher limits at the expense of battery life. Both the chaps at my work with e-bikes have had them altered so they are technically road-illegal.

15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides.

I’d say they’d be brilliant for a lot of people around town where there’s a lot of stop/start and it’s often the effort of repeatedly getting a loaded bike up to speed that people struggle with/end up feeling sweaty.

Non-enthusiast cyclists who want to travel faster than 15mph probably buy a scooter.

I’d say they’d be brilliant for a lot of people around town where there’s a lot of stop/start and it’s often the effort of repeatedly getting a loaded bike up to speed that people struggle with.

I haven’t done more than car-park tests with an e-bike, but I have ridden with someone who was on one. On twisty, fairly flat trails the advantage is considerable – it’s clearly a LOT easier to repeatedly accelerate out of corners.

You don’t have to have ridden one to be opposed to sharing trails bikes with motors on (and regardless of how the power is delivered, is exactly what they are). I don’t for a second doubt that they are great for making climbs easier. If they are not for the physically impaired, are we be advocating that fit, able bodied people go out and buy them just to make it all a bit easier?
Playing devils advocate a bit here, I don’t particularly care and I won’t unless access is questioned due to their use.

But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing? What if, other than by looking at the bike, you can’t actually tell that they’re electric assisted when riding with someone on one?

By my reckoning most riders who’ll ride them will still be considerably slower than the many fit and fast riders around so should they be banned too (for crimes against lycra, maybe but… 😉 )?

But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing?

Yes, in a nut shell.

But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing?

Only if it affects access IMHO. Cripes, I get overtaken by enough people uphill as it is. A few more won’t make any difference 🙂
I’d probably piss myself laughing if/when an old biffer drops me for dead on a 50lb bike!
My point is that you don’t have to have ridden one to have an opinion on them.

But you do need to understand how they work and there’s a great dealing myth and misunderstanding surrounding them. Which is one of the reasons we have two of them here at ST right now.

I can understand that, as a business, it makes sense for Singletrack to include eBikes in the magazine as it’s probably going to be an expanding segment.

I’ve got quite a good grasp of how things work and understand the drive system, there’s no myth or misunderstanding about it. I just don’t see it as a natural progression of cycling. It’s a big departure from something, which until now, has been a human powered activity.

But you do need to understand how they work

Why?
It’s a bike with a motor on it. I’m not a rocket scientist but even I can figure out that it makes going uphill a lot easier.
Feels like another industry “push” to me. I don’t care if someone rides one, but since the whole wh*****ze (and now hub width) thing, I’m very wary of these “pushes”.

There are wider implications, as battery tech improves (think F1 and Apple spending much $’s in battery R&D), ebikes make biking far more accessible for the masses. Less cars on road, more investment in proper bike lanes, and so on. This benefits all riders, e-bike or not. I think the commuter type bikes will see a far wider appeal than the MTB versions initially.

Historically, no doubt this same type of discussion was had about motor cars and computers.

I saw with interest a shop in Guildford dedicated to e-bikes: http://electricbikesguildford.com/%5B/url%5D

I think this has been said by a few, but when I’m back in nappies and getting spoon fed by pretty nurses, I’ll be buying one!

dday – Member

I think this has been said by a few, but when I’m back in nappies and getting spoon fed by pretty nurses, I’ll be buying one!

I think that might be leaving it a bit late, to be honest.

When I consider that I’m too old or incapable of riding bikes half reasonably I’ll just walk more and do more trail clearing and building – I can’t see me going down the electric route.

When I consider that I’m too old or incapable of riding bikes half reasonably I’ll just walk more and do more trail clearing and building – I can’t see me going down the electric route

But why limit yourself? if an assisted bike could keep you on the trails (or roads) for longer enjoying the sport/leisure activity in the areas you love then why give it up? you might be happy to, but other people want to carry on.

It’s a big departure from something, which until now, has been a human powered activity.

Yes it is, but they’re still bikes and they won’t replace normal bikes, they can co-exist quite happily with normal bikes, most people like us ride because they like riding and like the exercise as well, those people aren’t all going to go off and swap to eBikes, but they do offer options to other people who might not ride at all, or as much.

The city/commuting side of it will undoubtedly end up much bigger than the MTB, it already is bigger really, and will keep growing I think, where as the MTB side of it has a much more self-limiting market share.

What a great thread! It’s threads like this that make stw the melting pot that it is.

It’s interesting to see the polarizing nature of the debate with genuine concerns raised about access. To my mind,I wonder how much this is a case of perceived threat against reality. The market for e bikes is small. It is a big financial commitment and has a limited market to appeal to. Who will buy them? I suspect commuters, more mature riders with a bit of disposable income, bike tarts who fancy a new toy. For most, they will be an expensive luxury.

Will there be a backlash from walkers? Perhaps but will it be any greater than those who experience poor behaviour from riders at the moment. The internet is a curious place. We tend to portray other user groups as vocal bike hating loons but are they not just a tiny minority when most people neither bother nor care about other users such as bikers? In my experience, most outdoor users are good folk who share a common love of the outdoors. As such, e bikes don’t concern me at all. I’ve ridden one and I loved it. It was fun but still a bike. Now a fat version really tickles my fancy!

But that’s at the moment sanny. As I’ve said before, they will inevitably get cheaper and better – the electric bikes 10 years ago were shit – expensive,heavy (even compared to current ones!), short range and low power. The point is that they will develop to a point where the weight aspect becomes a much smaller issue and they’ll get cheaper as more people buy them (and China starts making decent ones).

I think as we’ve seen in this thread, for many, regardless of whether they’re the same as a motorbike, they see this as a significant step away from bikes due to the motor and as such there could be a much bigger reaction from walkers, etc than you might think. The risk is that bikes still get lumped in with them in some areas where access is less well legally defined (eg permissive type trails).

For that reason, I’d argue that the mags, websites, etc that will undoubtedly start pushing them as the next big thing need to think carefully about how they do that and what ‘ground rules’ they start to set out – they will have influence on the direction they take IMO particularly as they get cheaper and less experienced riders start to get them and look to the media for knowledge on their new sport.

As a means of transport great. As a recreational vehicle sharing the same trails as mtbs sorry no. And as others have said if I ever get to the stage went I can’t pedal a bike as I’d like then I’m out. I love cycling but electric assist isn’t cycling as I see it,not now or ever will be.

Speaking as a somewhat lapsed rider and a lifelong walker I, and I think most countryside frequenters, would far sooner say “no” to excess speed, skidding and illegal digging than bikes which are a bit easier to get up hill and a bit less good at going downhill.

Even regular trail bikes these days are hugely capable and make the trail “easy” in lots of ways – what’s the problem with making the boring bits easy?

I think they help those physical conditions who would normally struggle to ride an opportunity to ride with anyone else so I think they are a good option. I did an Enduro race this year and there was an E-Bike category after speaking to some of the riders I was definitely convinced they have a place in the MTB world just like sing speed, rigid and fat.

I think some people on here are just afraid they’ll lose KOM’s to them. I’ve never ridden one, but think they’re a great idea. We were riding around Salzburg area at the weekend and there were quite a few people on them. I hardly noticed any noise from them, so would be surprised if walkers would even know, unless someone was being a loon on a deristricted one. I only noticed when I got overtaken by some old people and looked at their bikes and saw they were e-bikes. If my health/age meant I couldn’t ride a normal bike, I would definitely get one, I love being outdoors and you can get so much further on a bike than walking.

As a recreational vehicle sharing the same trails as mtbs sorry no

if I ever get to the stage went I can’t pedal a bike as I’d like then I’m out

But why not? Just because you’d give up doesn’t mean anyone who starts to struggle should effectively have the entire bridleway and countryside ROW network snatched away from them when an assisted bike could keep them riding and able to enjoy those trails for many more years.

Would you really begrudge and older, injured, or less able rider out on an eBike if you met them on bridleway in the hills?

If you’re going down the “whatabouterry” route would you really begrudge bolting handholds on a Grade 8C climb to make it accessible? After all, the majority of us non spider men are being denied the right to experience the wonder of scaling that cliff.

The impaired access thing is a complete red herring. At no point has anyone in Bosch thought:

“Wouldn’t it be splendid for humanity if we can add a motor* to a bike to allow the old and afflicted to experience the countryside?”

*in a subtle enough so as not to make it a motorbike

No, they though “We can sell jumped up bikes to folk with more money than sense. There’s $$$$$ in that.”

I think some people on this thread don’t understand what sort of riding the vast majority of ‘mtb’ type bicycles get used for.

Bosch are designing for people who want a bit of help getting up a fireroad or away from the lights, not for people trying to shave tenths off their time on a red run.

If you’re going down the “whatabouterry” route would you really begrudge bolting handholds on a Grade 8C climb to make it accessible? After all, the majority of us non spider men are being denied the right to experience the wonder of scaling that cliff.

Ahhh… Someone else who’s climbed at La Balme de Thuy.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=146690

I know exactly what the majority of “mtb’s” get used for – nothing. They sit in sheds and pop up on gumtree ten years later.

Bosch are trying to find a new outlet for their existing technology and expertise. Cobbling it on to bikes is one.

The impaired access thing is a complete red herring. At no point has anyone in Bosch thought:

It doesn’t really matter if that was the original motivation in Bosch or not, that is one of the uses they are getting put to, and if it’s a red herring them it’s a flippin massive smelly fish in the room that you can’t ignore.

If you’re going down the “whatabouterry” route would you really begrudge bolting handholds on a Grade 8C climb to make it accessible? After all, the majority of us non spider men are being denied the right to experience the wonder of scaling that cliff.

That would be modification of the environment, not use of a new tool/technology to access it.

If you’re going to use that analogy it would be like flattening and smoothing all the red runs to allow easier access which is clearly not what we are talking about in any regards.

The nearest thing I can think of in your example would be some kind of portable/anchorable winch system which would be taken to locations to aid access which is totally different and at this stage (as far as I know) hypothetical.

And if we’re going hypothetical* then how would you feel about augmented/assisted bionic limbs if that were one day possible to allow people to walk/cycle who otherwise might struggle? would they also not be welcome on your trails?

*maybe not that hypothetical – starts saving for my de-restricted PowerLegs ™ for when I’m old!

The nearest thing I can think of in your example would be some kind of portable/anchorable winch system which would be taken to locations to aid access which is totally different and at this stage (as far as I know) hypothetical.

It’s been done, many years ago. Apparently back in Soviet days there was shortage of climbing rope but not winch cables and equipment so some early expedition were done using crazy winch systems and steel ropes.

And if we’re going hypothetical* then how would you feel about augmented/assisted bionic limbs if that were one day possible to allow people to walk/cycle who otherwise might struggle? would they also not be welcome on your trails?

Yeah that’s cool. I’d be less comfortable with able bodied people strapping powered prosthetics to themselves and bounding round an athletics track*

*DARPA may already have done this.

It’s been done, many years ago. Apparently back in Soviet days there was shortage of climbing rope but not winch cables and equipment so some early expedition were done using crazy winch systems and steel ropes.

Sounds interesting actually, gonna go off and research!

I’d be less comfortable with able bodied people strapping powered prosthetics to themselves and bounding round an athletics track

for competition use there’d obviously need to be demarcation points (both with my PowerLegs and eBikes) but for general use the two situations are actually very similar.

I look forward to some of my less able friends, (and probably my ageing dad!) being able to join me on a bridleway bimble here in sunny Devon on an eBike at some point. But I really don’t think you’re gonna see a mass take-up amongst mainstream MTB enthusiasts, they have their place and their uses, but they will not replace normal MTBs

When ebikes attack!

Did the bike taser you?

no, that’s a “speed scrape” you see at eBike speeds it means that any small amount of dust or debris in the air, like kicked up from a wheel, can become highly abrasive, if he’d been on a de-restricted machine he might have started burning up!

200!