The (e-)apocalypse is nigh!

It’s still added power from another source and it’s potentially 250w to boot….that’s significant in my book.

There’s a reason the bike weighs about 20lbs more than a normal bike and that’s because of the battery and motor….it’s there working away, it ain’t just the rider on an e-bike but nice try!

Mark’s video on the main page seems to suggest it is a significant amount of power. I’m not sure a small amount of power would be enough to smash strava times on a 50lb bike.

munrobiker

E-bikes do not add significant power. They add a small amount.

You’ll note i carefully used the word “significant”! Whilst in the grand scheme of things, 250watts is just 1/3 of a horsepower, and tiny in the modern world, as a typical “hobby” MTB rider, i average something around 200watts of power on my rides.
Hence an Ebike of 250watts peak is able to double my average power output for the duration of my ride. That IS significant!

(and quite clearly why riding one immediately gives you KOMs. If the power added was “insignificant” then you wouldn’t get a KOM if you were previously the un-assisted KOM holder)

I’m curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be ‘allowed’ to benefit from an ebike? Because it occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can’t ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

Chronic fatigue is the one that springs to my mind Mark.

Still not convinced. Chronic fatigue is pretty debilitating and riding an ebike is still pretty strenuous. It just allows you to get up technical climbs faster. I think there’s a considerable underestimation from the people who have not ridden an ebike just how much effort you still have to put in.

Now I know that in the video I shot I deliberately went out to try and poach as many KOMs as I could to make a point but it’s interesting to note that no matter how hard I tried on the road I couldn’t get in to the top half of any of the road sections. eBikes are not going to affect roadies and their KOM’s simply due to the fact that they offer no assistance above 15mph, which is pretty slow for a high achieving Strava roadie. I was also no where near any decent times on any of the DH sections either. Techy, off-road climbs are a different kettle of fish. That’s where the Strava damage will be done.

occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can’t ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

someone with a heart problem, or asthma?

Did you see the link about de-limitting them? Essentially just tweek the speedo so it “thinks” it’s always under 15mph.

I’m curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be ‘allowed’ to benefit from an ebike? Because it occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can’t ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

I thought this too when I saw you huffing and puffing in that vid TBH.

Sounds like Ton on this thread uses one, so maybe he can explain how it’s better than a pushbike for him as somebody with health problems?

I’ve got a pretty strong opinion on the issue but I’m willing to listen to all sides and I appreciate Loco setting the record straight on trail damage.

For reference, although 250W sounds pretty small, at 15mph, it’s equivalent to the rider pushing the pedals around with 20.6Kg of force (assuming 34/13 ratio, 26″ wheels (no kittens were harmed etc etc) and 175mm cranks).

Whilst that isn’t quite a “stand in the pedals and slog it out” effort i doubt too many people would consider than kind of additional force insignificant 😉

(in reality, because we don’t pedal in perfect circles, it will be equivalent to rather more effort during just the efficient pedal down stroke part of the crank rotation)

Who are these disabled people who will be ‘allowed’ to benefit from an ebike?

There’s a well known local rider at Brechfa who due to age and health issues now uses an e-bike. Gives him enough help on the ups that he can still come out and enjoy himself instead of sitting at home reminiscing.

The bike is heavier so you have an overhead of power required just to get to being equivalent to an unpowered bike. For arguments sake lets say a bike weight is 15% of of the all-up weight and ignoring wind resistance etc at slow speeds uphill is 15% of the power. If that increases to 25% of the weight but, again for round numbers, lets say the e-assist doubles the available power then you have say a 60% increase in available power assuming the person is the same power output.

But I am not sure how many of those bikes can output 250W for say a 3-5hr ride? assuming the time split is 50% climbing, 30% flat and the rest down hill will they have to be on the lower power mode?

Think most of the hate is from the trail gods that will have spent 4-5 grand on an boutique bike and are upset they might get passed by a biffer on a cheaper bike with a motor. Add fatbike to ebike you get the perfect recipe to wind these people up.

Think that’s bad, you should see it when you pass them in a 4 wheeled DH bike 😉

But I am not sure how many of those bikes can output 250W for say a 3-5hr ride? assuming the time split is 50% climbing, 30% flat and the rest down hill will they have to be on the lower power mode?

Haibikes with Bosch motors are all about that, uphill and along flat to get going to 15mph handy, downhill power assist only good out of corners & a pain when putting an additional pedal stroke in as can get a slightly delayed surge of power which made me overshoot a corner or 2 downhill on steep techy stuff

Would I buy one myself and take it to Llandegla or the Peak District? -No, that’s not really what they’re for.

What are these e-bikes with 6″ travel and disc brakes for then?

It depends on your level of chronic fatigue/whatever illness, but I don’t think if you do have a disability and buy an e-bike you will be tearing up Jacob’s Ladder, e-bike or otherwise.

My experience of an e-bike up a steep but smooth hill (I suspect if you had an illness you’d still be going for the easiest way up) was that it let you maintain a normal speed with minimum effort. If you hammer it you will be able to go up to the speed limiter, but someone with a problem won’t be doing that.

I still think the biggest factor in the e-bike debate is the idiot on top. If you are an idiot, you will be an idiot on an e-bike, as you would be on a normal bike. Fortunately idiots on bikes are in a minority. Most people are not idiots and will not be tearing up trails at the limit of the electric assist.

Daveyboywonder- the main market, which appears to be on the Continent, is for people having really big days out. Bigger than they would otherwise have, because now they have an e-bike.

How will they get us banned though?

Mainly by lobbying Landowners to forbid bikes from their land (i,e, Hurtwood, Woburn Sands) by encouraging councils to forbid bikes from parks (i.e. Stanmer Park) and by discouraging any further access when it is proposed.

Most of us use the Bridleway network but generally this isn’t where the fun is and have sections or areas of trail we use that only exist due to the goodwill, tolerance or apathy of the landowner be it the NT, Council or private individuals. It’s these bits that will suffer if the NIMBY’s manage to use E-bikes to lever open the debate about local two-wheeled access.

These people are admittedly few in number but they tend to have an axe to grind, plenty of time on their hands and the editor of the local rag on speed dial.

Can they get MTB’ing forbidden outright? Highly unlikely, but if given the opportunity they can certainly make life a lot less fun and in areas where MTB’ing access is dependent on local goodwill they’ll be a significant factor for the ‘arguments against.’

eBikes are not going to affect roadies and their KOM’s simply due to the fact that they offer no assistance above 15mph, which is pretty slow for a high achieving Strava roadie.

Well it’d get you this KOM:
http://www.strava.com/activities/162566215/segments/3773008169

Is anyone on this thread involved with the promotion, sales or business of ebikes? Just so we know like

Not me!

I’m curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be ‘allowed’ to benefit from an ebike?

People with, in no particular order:

heart conditions
breathing difficulties (asthma/reduced lung capacity/other)
debilitating muscle disorders
damaged/malformed/incomplete limbs
fatigue related conditions that limit output
other things!

Not to mention those recovering from injuries (internal and external) to rebuild strength and fitness but outside and not indoors!

The beauty of them is that they offer access to the terrains and distance/duration of ride that otherwise may be beyond normal ability, yes you still need to have a certain amount of physical ability but the benefits and extension capabilities are very real.

What are these e-bikes with 6″ travel and disc brakes for then?

I suspect they are good for hammering downhill in alpine areas where riding to the top would otherwise be exhausting.

I don’t think the arguments about eBikes helping to get normal bikes banned holds up, if it ever came down to such a decision then it would be very easy to have a clear demarcation point and only ban bikes with some kind of motor assist, and even that would be a hard sell when presented with the facts.

Even in very contentious and controversial areas such bans have to be supported by fact, case study, and law. They might try to use it as leverage but it is easily countered when actually required and the all-ability access side of it is also a very strong ball in ‘our’ court.

Private land of course is another matter, and hence why it’s important to make sure the myth and misinformation doesn’t propagate, and as evidenced in this thread ‘we’ are not helping ourselves by helping to spread it within in our community!

Can they get MTB’ing forbidden outright? Highly unlikely, but if given the opportunity they can certainly make life a lot less fun and in areas where MTB’ing access is dependent on local goodwill they’ll be a significant factor for the ‘arguments against.’

Innit.

The idea of city boys tearing up the trails in the Surrey Hills on de-restricted e-bikes may turn out to be wide of mark, but the anti-bike militants are hardly going to trouble themselves to look into the nitty gritty of how they work.

It’s bikes with motors and big ****-off tyres and that’s all they’ll be interested in knowing.

I suspect they are good for hammering downhill in alpine areas where riding to the top would otherwise be exhausting.

Except they’re not that much fun downhill compared to a normal trail bike IMO

Innit.

The idea of city boys tearing up the trails in the Surrey Hills on de-restricted e-bikes may turn out to be wide of mark, but the anti-bike militants are hardly going to trouble themselves to look into the nitty gritty of how they work.

It’s bikes with motors and big ****-off tyres and that’s all they’ll be interested in knowing.

With a full charge on turbo mode, the bosch motored bike had enough charge for 3 BPW offroad climbs, if derestricted it’d be about half that. So 3 climbs to the top of Barry know best approx I’d guess and slower down it than a 9 grand carbon ego chariot 😉 Less if you go to the cake shop en route

Firstly, I haven’t ridden an ebike. I can see that they could be fun though.

Having said that, my concern is over access as others have already mentioned. I understand but don’t buy the argument about it being pedal assist rather than motorised. The pedal assist bit and the cutout at >15mph can both be over ridden with a bit of tinkering as far as I can see.

Fundamentally, if it has a motor it is motorised.

can both be over ridden with a bit of tinkering as far as I can see

and the bike then becomes illegal to use in that manner.

This is a problem, and it will need to be dealt with somehow*, but basing decisions and opinions on potential illegal misuse is a bit wide of the mark.

if people do illegal things then you deal with that accordingly, not the legal use.

*no idea how really other than going after the source of such mods, not even sure what the penalty would be for someone using a de-resticted bike if caught and actually taken through proper process? anyone know?

Hatter I do see how that situation could start to develop but with all the positives of cycling in parks and permissable private land I just don’t believe that a couple of idiots on e-mtbs will get us all banned – there’s many more idiots on normal mtbs that haven’t got us banned in the last decade or more. Look at all the issues at Woburn or Surrey hills with trail digging, horse-scaring stories etc, some idiocy, mainly just a bit of trail-cheekiness and all the grey inbetween, still no ban. Not that there won’t be but imo it’s unlikely to be due to the existence of e-bikes. They just don’t add any more risk or percieved danger than current bikes or trails built that pop out blindly onto bridleways or FPs, etc.

The older/weaker riders enjoying some pedal-assisted fresh air are a harder lot to demonise too, it’s a PR-lose battle to get MTB access removed due to e-bikes generally. There’s some chat among green-laners about buying E-MTBs in response to the lack of motorbike access but I suspect that’s a blip in sales compared to the number of riders out most weekends.

Except they’re not that much fun downhill compared to a normal trail bike IMO

I’d imagine not, any bikepacker knows that a big descent on a 45-50lb bike needs a very different approach – smoothly does it, slower into corners, far fewer risks .. but all that momentum has a fun side at times.

Yep, it was different, like riding a badly setup & suspended DH bike from about 1995 😉

Let’s be honest, who here wouldn’t like to try an e-bike with a 2.5kW motor?

I’m curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be ‘allowed’ to benefit from an ebike?

People with, in no particular order:

heart conditions
breathing difficulties (asthma/reduced lung capacity/other)
debilitating muscle disorders
damaged/malformed/incomplete limbs
fatigue related conditions that limit output
other things!

Not to mention those recovering from injuries (internal and external) to rebuild strength and fitness but outside and not indoors!

The beauty of them is that they offer access to the terrains and distance/duration of ride that otherwise may be beyond normal ability, yes you still need to have a certain amount of physical ability but the benefits and extension capabilities are very real.
Yep, exactly. There are many scenarios where an e-bike can help.
(I have ridden a couple of different e-bikes, hybrids not mountain bikes, belonging to family members. I don’t need one myself and am not involved in selling/promotion/whatnot.)

Look at all the issues at Woburn or Surrey hills with trail digging, horse-scaring stories etc, some idiocy, mainly just a bit of trail-cheekiness and all the grey inbetween, still no ban

Not yet, but it’s come pretty damn close a few times and the “MTB’s are the thin end of the wedge for motorbikes” argument is one I’ve heard time and time again, even when I was sitting in Village Hall meetings about whether or not to ban riding at Woburn Sands well over a decade ago, long before the existence of E-bikes.

Whilst MTBs will generally be grudgingly tolerated motorbikes are generally seen as beyond the pale, putting clear blue water between “nice quiet, safe” MTB’s and “nasty noisy, damaging” motorbikes was often key to winning the argument and the fact that in the public consciousness E-bikes blur the lines between the two is what makes them potentially problematic.

Some general legislation clarifying the access status of E-bikes distinct from MTB’s would be a start but I can’t see it being given the parliamentary time of day.

I sincerely hope that E-bikes will find their niche in helping more people to enjoy the British countryside and that any debate that greets their arrival with be rational, calm and well-informed.

However, from my experience of the Anti-MTB lobby I sincerely doubt that calm rationality will be the foremost feature of the ‘letters to the editor’ that the arrival of e-bikes will trigger so those who live and ride in sensitive areas should be prepared to stand up and be counted should a local kerfuffle arise because if it does these are the arguments that will be thown at them.

Haibikes with Bosch motors are all about that, uphill and along flat to get going to 15mph handy, downhill power assist only good out of corners & a pain when putting an additional pedal stroke in as can get a slightly delayed surge of power which made me overshoot a corner or 2 downhill on steep techy stuff

maybe a gradient sensor would be handy to switch off power assist on downhills?

Agree about the DH bit though, you want a bike to be agile with low inertia and a heavy motor and battery is just going to ruin that.

As for users – pretty sure a few injured soldiers would quite like to get back out on the trails but in some cases they just cannot get the power down on hills.

The amount of assistance could probably be controlled to even out an advantage to enable people to compete against fully able bodied people and the only way the technology is going to advance and come down in price is if they sell in decent numbers.

Yes. I see the list of disabilities and I’ll say that an eBike is really NOT the best solution for these people. An ebike only really suits able bodied riders in general. I’m sure there are some small groups of disabled people who would find an eBike is a great enabler for them (point above about injured soldiers for example) but in this thread alone the argument that eBikes are only for the elderly or disabled gives the impression that they are some kind of magic accessibility ticket to mountain biking. Apart from the elderly argument i’d say eBikes are really NOT a solution for the disabled population at large.

You ride an eBike like you ride an ordinary bike. You push the pedals to make it go. It’s doesn’t go all on it’s own. The pedals are not some kind of switch and so long as you turn them the motor does the rest. No. You have to pedal hard enough to propel the bike. The motor then helps propel the bike a bit faster than you would ordinarily travel without it. In effect it’s a range extender in that you will be able to ride further. If you ride it like I did this morning then you can ride uphill at 15mph, which on many off-road climbs will bag you some KOMs, but you will be out of breath at the top of the climb because you still have to work.

As soon as you ride one you will realise what this means. I’ve said it earlier, an ebike makes a climb less steep, but it’s still steep. The higher power setting you use the less steep the climb feels.. But it never stops feeling like a climb. If you can’t ride up a climb to start with then an eBike won’t help you no matter what power setting you use.

As far as Strava is concerned, they seem to think that being ’clearly motor-assisted’ is a valid reason to flag the ride – if anyone is that bothered.

So it sounds like e-bikes can get you up hills quicker, you still have to pedal though and are quite possibly crap on the downs.

Sounds mint. Where do I sign up… (to a regular ride to build up my fitness and a few skills days for a fraction of the price of a 50lb battery operated bike).

Has anyone flagged mark’s ride yet BTW?

I guess he made it private? http://www.strava.com/segments/904851

If you can’t ride up a climb to start with then an eBike won’t help you no matter what power setting you use.

i disagree with this.
on a weeks offroad touring, i managed to ride up a hill i have never been able to ride up. and i beat a bloke up it who would normally leave me for dead.

the hill in question is from kidstones gate above buckden, up to stake moss. it is a steep babies head covered climb. some may know it.

Have ridden one

It was hugely fun for about 10 mins then it was just a slightly assisted very heavy bike. Good for hills, pretty much neutral everywhere else. As it happens after I spent a day riding around Daventry on a Haibike, that weekend I met a couple of blokes trying them out at Cannock. they were ripping up the climbs, and were pretty much just the same on the descents, the massive difference was that they did the 2 loops twice without stopping at the top of the climbs or getting tired…at all. As others have said, just extended the range significantly.

I think they’re great things, expands choice massively, encourages folk onto bikes, as a commuter I can see the benefits instantly.

One who CGAF who uses strava whilst riding one here.