At the moment EV cars are a novelty. Currently there is not enough infrastructure to support large numbers and the user is effectively subsidised.

for me there is no charging point at work or at home and as I regularly do journeys of more than 300miles the range is too low. For me to be interested full charge range of 500 miles but a 15min fast charge for 300 would be acceptable. Cost for a 500mile journey in “fuel” would need to be below £25 for comparison.

The cost of the vehicle and lack of service support is also a massive risk. I can get almost any part for my car overnight and installed the next day. Once Ford or the like have a car and considering they can use all Tesla IP for free it should not be too long they have a massive advantage.

As for fires the electric car Richard Hammond crashed caught fire again after it was put out. So for sure there will be some safety concerns to be address as there are always unknowns with a new system. All it will take is one bad batch of batteries and the roads are clear of drivers for a bit…

The EV wave is coming. There is alot of EV infrastructure going in near where I am..oK there was sweet FA before, but there are signs it’s happening. two years ago my local council was dishing out free EV home charging points, so I’ve got one in my garage. It takes time but in a couple of years time there will be alot more. It’s probably more convenient for an EV driver to find a charging point than someone running their car on LPG finding a garage with LPG.

My wife is looking to change her car and I’m definitely trying to push her towards an EV or at least a Hybrid…She’s not that keen but its a work in progress.

Ultimately we’re the consumers and we have to make that leap and go for it and as soon as the demand starts to rise then the infrastructure will appear almost overnight. We need to take back control as consumers and stop writing for governments to wipe our backsides for us.

As for fires the electric car Richard Hammond crashed caught fire again after it was put out.

Yes, that thing smouldered for days after the crash as each cell overloaded and went up one by one as they couldn’t fully isolate the battery pack. It’s immature technology…just as cars were for decades as people were transitioning from horse and cart to horseless carriages. We can’t wait for the technology to fully mature…it will take decades.

On the way out – it doesn’t look like it as yet

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/07/30/the-tesla-model-3-blew-away-the-competition-in-july-infographic/#5e6a2abd1c90

There may also be concern about how the technology ages. With an ICE car, if you maintain it (and are lucky, unlike some people on here), then the parts on there should last for years and the vehicle will carry on rolling at about the same level of performance.

With pure EV cars, I can’t see that being the case. Take a mobile phone… After three years of normal use, the talk and standby time is, what, half its initial one? Is there data on long term use of EV cars to show how well they retain the capacity to travel, or are the early adopters all running three year leases so that the problem belongs to the next in line?

How many here would consider buying a 30k mile three/four year old EV, knowing that the battery tech is both built in to the chassis and likely to be previous generation?

Take a mobile phone… After three years of normal use, the talk and standby time is, what, half its initial one? Is there data on long term use of EV cars to show how well they retain the capacity to travel

There are teslas in the US with 200k miles with average battery degragation of 6% ICE cars would be in the scrapheap by then

I’m certainly in the camp of I’d only lease an EV car at the moment. Not sure I’d entirely trust battery degradation figures reported by the Tesla itself either, or did they do real world distance comparisons in comparable conditions to arrive at that figure?

It’s a huge shame that the EV charging points going in for cars won’t work for e bikes

Nasher, I’d be interested in seeing the source for that. I know my Macbook battery has decent health still, but I don’t think it is fair to say most ICE cars would be scrap if the test was lab based.

Not sure I’d entirely trust battery degradation figures reported by the Tesla itself either,

They’re from users rather than Tesla itself.

The charging is very intelligent. Normal charge is only to 80%, which makes a huge difference to Li-ion cell life expectancy. You have to select Range mode to charge to 100% as doing so will degrade the cells slightly more and most of the time you don’t need 100% range. This means they’re getting exceptionally good battery ageing.

 It’s probably more convenient for an EV driver to find a charging point than someone running their car on LPG finding a garage with LPG.

Not from my mate’s experience running a car on LPG vs the Guardian article on running a Tesla from Brighton to Edinburgh it’s not. Plus with LPG you can just chuck petrol in and have higher running costs in a pinch.

So, you basically use an EV for short(er) journeys and use ICE for longer ones if you want to max out efficiency?

Not from my mate’s experience running a car on LPG vs the Guardian article on running a Tesla from Brighton to Edinburgh it’s not. Plus with LPG you can just chuck petrol in and have higher running costs in a pinch.

I know it’s incidental but the fuel station here removed LPG as it wasn’t being used enough, there’s 3 charge points in town.

Over here it’s mainly E85 rather than LPG. Many, many EV charging points and plugs though.

My old local Morrison’s had LPG.

So, you basically use an EV for short(er) journeys and use ICE for longer ones if you want to max out efficiency

This is basically how I use ours. Although the “short(er)” journeys will get longer with every upgrade in tech.

We have the i3 with the bigger battery and range extender, very  rarely used but gives the confidence  to go to the max distances. We use that for every journey we can up to say 120miles, I’ve never charged it anywhere but home so infrastructure isn’t a problem. I’d say would cover 95+% of main traveling we do.  We then have an ICE vehicle for the rest. We’ve had it 18months or so and done 23k in it and it’s been perfect for reliability. The ICE car (same age) has done about 5k, also gets used when we need 2 cars, I’m thinking of changing this to PHEV as most of its trips are less than 20 miles, but will cover the longer stuff as well.

im hoping EV’s take a while to catch on, because I’m getting the benifits of cheap running. If everyone went EV tomorrow the government would have a massive budget hole from fuel duty and would have to fill it some how.

Yup very few EV offer a good long range but the next gen ones are certainly getting there. I’ve said it before having switched to hybrid last year from decades of diesel I’m not going back to ICE. Certainly looking at full EV next time with the offering of the VW ID seems it will do the distance I was waiting for which is around 300 miles range. BP has bought into the charging infrastructure so there will be big roll outs coming soon enough.

If you had to choose just one car though, what would you choose? Based on what you have, the long journeys would prohibit keeping the EV and would mean a PHEV or an ICE.

For me, the journeys I do are either bike round town, or trips with the dogs out into the country over distances that are too long for an EV on one charge (300+ miles). An EV would fit with the first if I wanted to go a short distance (visit relatives about an hour away, shopping), but not the second.

They’re from users rather than Tesla itself

Yes but isn’t it users just recording what range the Tesla is telling them it has at full charge after a period of time and comparing it with the range it displayed when new? If so then I’d question how accurate that is over time, whether the cells themselves report back accurately, whether there’s some factor built into the calculation that means it’s not necessarily a direct comparison figure etc. Li-ion cells degrade even if they’re not used, 6% after 5 years of regular use/charging seems almost unbelievably good to me…

Hand on heart I’d honestly go EV and just change my habits. The infrastructure we would need is there. Our long trips are either to London (and surrounding areas) for my wife with work or Suffolk way for her family. With the charging points on the M6 toll and we have a 13amp charger we can just plug in (us a 7Kw at home) both would be okay thanks to the REX. Just need to plan a head more for unexpected trips, but I bet most could be done with a bit of thought. I think this year, other than above, the ICE has been to Swansea, Leeds, Sheffield and the Lakes, all do able with a bit more effort (I was to lazy to bother).

We could do trains for anything out the blue or at the very worst hire a car if I unexpectedly had to go to the top of Scotland for some reason.

We live rural although not to far from a city, so we use the car for lots of trips every day, kids to school, sports stuff with kids, shops, mtb centres (I could get fitter and ride there, but I won’t).

When we started to look at EV’s it was supposed to be the other car and just do some running round, but it turned out to be so good it has just taken over,  I will only use the ICE if I absolutely have to.

i honestly drive it with a smug smile on my face. When I drive the ICE I am constantly thinking “that press of the pedal cost me X or Y”.

They won’t be for everyone at the moment, but I don’t encounter any pitfalls at the moment. Since we got ours, 2 friends and my brother  (all of whom where very sceptical when I told them we where getting one) have got them.

On the original question, this lays out decent cases both for and against: https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/is-tesla-doomed-the-cases-for-and-against-the-electric-vehicle-pioneer

I personally see Tesla becoming a major force in battery manufacturing (and supplying everyone else) but a niche player in cars.

How many here would consider buying a 30k mile three/four year old EV, knowing that the battery tech is both built in to the chassis and likely to be previous generation?

I’d absolutely buy an older Leaf, even at double that age/mileage if I needed a second car for local trips. Those will just keep plodding on, even with a degraded battery they’ll still handle the sub-50-mile days that almost all second cars do. The state of health is easy to read via the diagnostics port, and there’s already plenty of people familiar with how to pull the battery packs apart and refurbish if it was ever needed (or there’s a healthy market for the modules for other things). Looking at the cost of a new battery pack from Nissan is like looking at the cost of an entire new engine for your car from a main dealer, just to fix a minor issue.

We have a plug-in hybrid now but next car (in 18 months or so) very likely to be a full battery EV. Massively more pleasant to drive and now that affordable mainstream cars are going past 40kWh / 150+ miles they can cover almost all of the journeys we do. I can live with adding half an hour to a longer trip (like the annual BPW visit) to top up charge on the way while I grab a coffee or something to eat.

Nissan env200 has been updated with the same 40kWh battery as the new Leaf – a combi one might just be our ideal family car.

Normal charge is only to 80%, which makes a huge difference to Li-ion cell life expectancy.

Also even 100% isn’t really 100%; the normal figures quoted for battery capacity is “usable” and not “total” as they generally have a few kwhs extra over so the battery is never full or empty. The Hyundai Kona is advertised as 64kwh but is actually 67kwh.

https://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-happens-when-you-put-300-000-miles-on-a-te-1798662230

There are teslas in the US with 200k miles with average battery degragation of 6% ICE cars would be in the scrapheap by then

Where I am currently in the US “normal” mileage is 25k ish a year. A focus size car with 120k still sells for 5k$ and a truck with 150k is considered low mileage. It is expected trucks should do 350k with basic servicing and most people expect a Japanese car to go 200k plus with no issues.

EV may be the future but won’t work for me for a while yet. Too expensive and impractical

I’d say that story is still pretty inconclusive (I’m not a Tesla hater, I’d have one tomorrow if I could afford it). How old is that 300k car? Going by their “up to 17k miles a month” comment it might only be 18 months old.

Also the statement:

“We got our 6% range back with the new battery,” Sonnad said with a laugh. “But had the firmware been updated, we’d be fine and plugging along.”

That’s a fairly big leap for me – they had the battery pack replaced! It’s wrong to assume the firmware update would have had the same effect.

Until they come up with a way of dealing with the majority parking in the UK, kerbside then i am out.

Li-ion cells degrade even if they’re not used, 6% after 5 years of regular use/charging seems almost unbelievably good to me…

It’s over charging which degrades the cells and poor temperature mgmt. Both of which are controlled in an electric car. The whole battery pack has heating / cooling lines running between all the cells and they are very conservatively charged.

So, the very low degradation isn’t that amazing. It’s just that most Li-ion bike lights hammer the cells with no regard to longevity and thus everyone expects them not to last…

Until they come up with a way of dealing with the majority parking in the UK, kerbside then i am out.

You should visit Scandinavia, they have kerb side plugs for the sump heaters, could easily do the same for charge points….

You should visit Scandinavia, they have kerb side plugs for the sump heaters, could easily do the same for charge points….

I agree the issue can be solved. But until it is there is a major issue. I would also raise one question. Most journeys in the UK are a few miles. most car journeys are basically avoidable, people are just lazy. The right way forward is getting cars out of circulation not creating a “cleaner” car, which isn’t really it just pollutes differently. Is the cost of infrastructure better spent in other ways??

Until they come up with a way of dealing with the majority parking in the UK, kerbside then i am out.

Not the majority by a long stretch – only about a quarter of cars are parked on the street. (source)

We have a very odd expectation in this country that you can just take up space on public road by leaving your car on it. You’re not allowed to keep a skip on the road without a permit, but a 2m x 5m car is fine. The Japanese, in cities at least, require proof of a place to keep your car (renting a place if necessary) before you can buy one. Limited on-street parking for short-term use but streets cleared overnight.

Until they come up with a way of dealing with the majority parking in the UK, kerbside then i am out.

There are many ways, first up is cars as a service not a owned item.

Next up is taxing personal transportation in a way that reflects it’s cost

Most journeys in the UK are a few miles. most car journeys are basically avoidable, people are just lazy.

I agree, but can’t ever see it changing…

I agree, but can’t ever see it changing…

In the last 2 decades we have stopped smoking inside, developed the mobile phone, have got rechargeable batteries and motors to the point they move sports cars, changed behaviours on so many levels this one will just take time and taxation.

I live in a place that has less parking than apartments, we do have 2 spaces for shared cars which are used a lot, the next 2 buildings down the road have “building cars” for the residents to use. We can start in the cities where it’s needed the most and work from there.

Not the majority by a long stretch – only about a quarter of cars are parked on the street. (source)

Surprised, everywhere i have lived has and large majority of places i have been have relied on street parking. Even new build developments. Only in 50/60s suburbia do you find large numbers of off street parking spaces.

Only in 50/60s suburbia do you find large numbers of off street parking spaces.

And now it would seem.

There’s a difference there between properties that have no off-street parking, and those where people own more cars than they have space to store, so they use the street as an overflow. All the new-builds I’ve visited have at least one off-street space per house, usually a garage too.

“Only in 50/60s suburbia do you find large numbers of off street parking spaces.

And now it would seem.”

is that like northern humour ? y’know like funny but with the humour missing ?

“All the new-builds I’ve visited have at least one off-street space per house, usually a garage too.”

be nice if the garage and the parking space were more than just a notional offering of something that approximated a space and a garage . all the new builds i looked at were perfect to park your isetta bubble car in but thats a whole other complaint.

No it’s based on the link posted up there. Funny thing though the 50s housing around here didn’t come with off street parking. The south is weird.

and round here in the city the offices around us have more parking than the residential properties despite having good public transport links, the depressing line of cars queuing to get in and out  past the tram line each day tells a very sorry tale.

Around my way they limit parking spaces to a fair bit less than than that of the office capacity

Has the joyuous effect of folk abandoning cars in near by streets and having locals feed birds on top of them, which I’m quite sure was not the intended effect

Was that 50/60s suburbia or just houses in general ? They had terraces then too didn’t they.

I’ve said this before on other threads regarding EV vs ICE..

I chopped in a Diesel SUV for a Hybrid SUV and there is no looking back for me now. Hybrid’s are simple and effective mixing range and access/use without the issues on Range Anxiety.

There is a blind assumption that’s EVs will take over from ICE vehicles within the next few years, but its both flawed and rose tinted view.

For the majority of people who use vehicles range doesn’t fit within the >250 miles out of EVs, then waiting for an hour or so to recharge to >80% to then continue journeys. It’s impractical and time consuming.

EVs are fine for short journeys, local run arounds where range isn’t an issue and a return to base (home) station is catered for.

Commercial vehicles, commuters and the Services will continue to use ICE for many many years yet, how long? Probably 30 or more.

The main issue I have with EVs is the infrastructure required to make them a viable option. This government (or any other) is leaving the infrastructure requirements and build to commercial interests, who in turn are only interested in providing a service for a charge cost. And those self same commercial providers are not building the power stations or charging points in the high st nor residential street to provide the power… no, currently it’s down to the user to change thier approach to accommodate EV into thier lives or are providing charging points away from home (base) without providing the support for rest or relaxation/.

We are many years away from EV taking over from IVE IMO.