If this old adage is correct why have they increased the hgv speeds in england?

Because Guy Martin.

If this old adage is correct why have they increased the hgv speeds in england?

One is not sure one knows what an “old adage” is.

It’s the conservatives wooing the prostitute killing and rolled up carpet purchases trucker’s vote.

….or Eddie Stobbart gave a generous donation to Mr Cameron’s yacht club.

It’s not correct. Inappropriate speed kills.

But mostly it’s because there’s always a hidden agenda and these things are often not about what they claim to be about.

One is not sure one knows what an “old adage” is.

I could make some shit up if you like. Add in a few random numbers and stuff.

Chief.

it’s an abacus

abacus Guy Martin – see ?

Because no one knew what it was anyway?

Because a signifcant amount of data suggest that some of our roads will actually become safer is the average speed of ALL the users of that road are similar.

IE single carriageway roads, with HGVs at 45mph, results in poor drivers carrying out poor overtakes, leading to collisions and deaths. If the HGV can do the same speed as the cars the number of collions reduces, even if this speed is higher than before!

It’s the same reason our Motorways are our safest roads, despite having the highest speed limit. (most users going a similar speed, crash barriers seperating opposing lanes, well lit, properly signed and decent road marking with no sharp bends etc.

Absolute speed is largely irrelevant in this case, the other risk factors outweigh it.

Lorries doing 50 not 40 means less people are bothered about overtaking, which results in less accidents?

and as a side effect it’ll drive off the road more of those painful cyclists and reduce pedestrians even further.

Yes it’s the old adage “less overtaking of lorries saves lives”.

Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop that does the damage.

Yes it’s the old adage “less overtaking lorries saves lives”.

what this adage lacks in snappiness, it makes up for in boring actual fact…

thegreatape – Member

Lorries doing 50 not 40 means less people are bothered about overtaking, which results in less accidents?

Or…..people are overtaking a lorry doing 50mph as opposed to 40mph?

Or…..people are overtaking a lorry doing 50mph as opposed to 40mph?

But less of them. Obviously. So still a reduction in risk.

I’m fairly sure that the slower the vehicle in front is going the more frustrated and determined to overtake people become.

Frustrated people determined to overtake can make very bad choices.

Lorries doing 50 not 40 means less people are bothered about overtaking, which results in less accidents?

Unlikely. People will still get pissed off about lorries doing 50, they’ll just be harder to overtake. People still get pretty pissed off if you drive a car at 60.

they’ll just be harder to overtake

For you maybe 🙂

The point theory is, fewer people mind sitting behind an HGV doing 50 than mind sitting behind one doing 40, so fewer people overtake. Unlikely? Well, I disagree, but that is based almost exclusively on my observations of driver behaviour on Highland roads, not across the country.

Also this

Frustrated people determined to overtake can make very bad choices.

Slow the lorries down to 30mph then. That should make the roads safer. As angry and frustrated drivers drive slowly and calmly behind a lorry waiting patiently to overtake.

The reality is trucks aren’t driving at 40mph on single carriageways anyway and the 40mph limit isn’t being enforced. When fuel prices were on the up truckers were threatening to drive at 40 as a protest.

That said they don’t commonly drive at 50 either.

I’ve met quite a few truckers who don’t even know the limit is 40. The a-road that leads to my workshop is pretty dangerous for trucks – most notably for having crossroads between blind summits. A truck travelling along there at 60 couldn’t stop if there are cars waiting to turn right when they come over the brow. So along that stretch there are signs reminding truckers that their limit is 40 (and with the exception of the councils bin lorries are ignored by HGVs).

More than once I’ve had truckers delivering to me asking what the signs were about and whether the limit even applied them.

I’m not against the idea of raising the NSL for trucks as such but only really for roads that suit it. They’ve got an experimental 50 limit on the A9 at the moment (one of the few roads where trucks actually drive at 40 for some reason) – and that road is perfect for it – few junctions, good visibility, side roads have slip roads, separate cycle lane and so on. But plenty of roads aren’t that suitable.

I think if an road doesn’t have room for cyclists and pedestrians, has blind bends and summits, if the junctions don’t have acceleration / deceleration lanes, or room for traffic turning right then the limit should stay at 40 and instead address the overtaking hazards by dropping the NSL on those roads for cars too

The point is, fewer people mind sitting behind an HGV doing 50 than mind sitting behind one doing 40, so fewer people overtake.

So the lunatic fringe will just have more dangerous overtakes to make forcing their way through the queue. Great.

If some people are happy not to overtake, this just makes a longer convy surely and therefore harder for people who do want to overtake at 50?

Maxtorque

Would be interested to see crash/fatality statistics on m1 and m62 where there’s been miles of barrier works @ 50mph, proper frightening not being able to get out of the way of a lane drifting lorry because it’s doing same speed (wasn’t that minibus crash with hen party on board squashed due to this?)

Those that wish to overtake can just safely work their way up the line of ‘waiters’ until they are behind the lorry. Nobody would have a problem with that.

But the “number of overtakers” vs the percieved speed reduction isn’t linear, and hence neither is the risk or the average number of accidents.

We know that if lorries were all doing 300mph, not one person would need to overtake.

And if lorries were all doing 0mph, every one would have to overtake.

Between those extremes, a certain proportion of peoplpe will overtake.

If the average speed on a single carriageway road is say 50mph, a lorry doing 48mph would probably only be overtaken occasionally, but a lorry going just 8mph slower at 40mph would be overtaken a lot more.

And of course, it’s not just overtaking. If your in a queue behind a truck tomorrow i guarantee you’ll see terrible driving before anyone overtakes, with bunching, sudden braking, tailgating etc, all due to a lack of roadcraft on the following drivers.

Those who want to overtake, but can’t will get aggressive frustrated, those that don’t want to overtake will just switch off and “sheep” along, generally so close to the vehicle ahead they have zero visibility and hence zero pre-emption……

If some people are happy not to overtake, this just makes a longer convy surely and therefore harder for people who do want to overtake at 50?

So now you want to keep those who want to go faster happy ? You’re not very consistent if you don’t mind me saying.

I’m fairly sure that the slower the vehicle in front is going the more frustrated and determined to overtake people become.

Yup. I drove to and from Calne every working day for thirteen years, and I saw my travel time drop from around 15 minutes for the eight mile run, to nearer thirty-five/forty, even with a bypass around Calne town centre, mainly due to drivers crawling along at 35mph, instead of the posted 60, which caused people to get frustrated and attempt to overtake where visibility was poor, which inevitably caused a couple of accidents, which meant the limit being dropped to 40/50.
Which hasn’t really improved traffic flow all that much, people just can’t get past the clot doing 30 in a 40-50 limit.
Modern cars will cruise happily and safely all day at 50-55, so why on earth do people sit at an indicated 40 (36mph) where it says 50 or 60?
If they did the posted limit, traffic would move much more smoothly.

bigthorn

Would be interested to see crash/fatality statistics on m1 and m62 where there’s been miles of barrier works @ 50mph, proper frightening not being able to get out of the way of a lane drifting lorry because it’s doing same speed (wasn’t that minibus crash with hen party on board squashed due to this?)

For some reason the “safety bubble” concept is not part of the driving test, or if it is, it isn’t drilled into drivers properly.
This is the rather basic and obvious point that you NEVER sit next to another vehicle with any overlap. You always maintain your “safety bubble” around you vehicle, and adjust your speed to do so, with positive acceleration if that is the safest method to do so.

This is the rather basic and obvious point that you NEVER sit next to another vehicle with any overlap. You always maintain your “safety bubble” around you vehicle, and adjust your speed to do so, with positive acceleration if that is the safest method to do so.

Then the highways put on the gantry signs ‘STAY IN LANE’ no wonder some drivers look like they don’t know what they’re doing

Those that wish to overtake can just safely work their way up the line of ‘waiters’ until they are behind the lorry. Nobody would have a problem with that.

You’re a bad man.

“Speed kills” is a lazy road safety slogan, as has been said ^^

The reason it’s been changed? Lorry brakes have been developed, ABS has been introduced, tyres have improved…and gross weights have increased, and people are still only human

It’s England and Wales only, so maybe a comparison can be drawn with the change and without (Scotland), let’s hope it’s no worse

Because no one was killed yesterday doing 180mph.

Average Jo will tolerate following a lorry (or me in my van) at 50mph, but on the rare occasion you come up behind an HGV with time to spare doing 40mph, everyone bunches up and gets agitated and you do see some silly overtakes.

So;

Less frustrated drivers/dangerous overtakes
Less tailgating
Hardly any HGV drivers stick to 40mph anyway

Have they decided to increase the tractor speed limit as well? (I remember it being suggested) That’s more likely to cause an issue with gung ho workers honing round country lanes with a 15 ton grain trailer!

Have they decided to increase the tractor speed limit as well?

25mph it’s been raised to.

And of course, it’s not just overtaking. If your in a queue behind a truck tomorrow i guarantee you’ll see terrible driving before anyone overtakes, with bunching, sudden braking, tailgating etc, all due to a lack of roadcraft on the following drivers.

What, is Molgrips waiting his turn again? 😉

So, judging by this thread, nobody knows the actual answer.