Home Forums Chat Forum Southern Rail strike – who is right?

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  • Southern Rail strike – who is right?
  • tjagain
    Full Member

    Industrial relations courts were tried by labour in the 70s. Failed but I don’t really remember why. IIRC “in place of strife” was the name of the policy.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Interesting piece. I have no way of knowing how true but it rings true to me.
    https://medium.com/@xciv/southern-rail-transport-secretary-misleads-passengers-1371dd775ab0#.qeqjs750b

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Sort of interesting but not sure what it actually brings to this discussion, the franchise is different to most.
    He does like a good whinge though

    Let’s be clear, the Thameslink fleet is being replaced with new class 700 trains?—?incidently I should add that these ‘state of the art’ trains that Mr Grayling talks about have no wifi, no power sockets and not even any tables!
    State of the art commuter trains that were procured by.. the DFT and not fit for the modern world of business.

    On a line at capacity priority one needs to be getting people form A to B. If you can do that and provide tables and power great. If that would mean more trains, less people per train then ticket prices will go up.

    Guard training takes around 3 months and includes safety critical training (staff allowed on to the track, can isolate power, can evacuate a train) and route knowledge?—?the new OBS role has none of this.
    To be clear again, a job (not a specific role) has been guaranteed until the end of ‘franchise’, because staff are contracted to GTR and GTR can’t guarantee anything beyond that.
    I wonder what will happen at franchise end?

    What really matters here are the risk assesments and the procedures for emergency that are in place. Do they provide a greater or lesser risk to the passengers on the train or not. Can somebody with the 3 month training do any of the things they are trained to do in the evironment they are working in.
    Nobody can promise anything after the end of the franchise, somebody may come along with a full driverless solution requiring only cleaners etc. They may choose to train OBS to do more or less or anything else.

    The key point about driver operated doors is if the level of risk has changed from the current position (person on train determining if the doors are safe to be closed and move the train away to a different person on the train determining if the doors are closed and safe to move.) If the risk level has increased then it is an issue, if there are mitigaing steps that can reduce the risk they should be implemented.

    If you are a wheelchair user and you need to either board or alight at an unmanned station the second member of staff is pretty essential for operating the ramps.
    GTR say that the OBS is not mandatory for a service to run, in fact their latest maps appearing on trains tell people to book in advance.

    At this stage they are not proposing to remove the member of staff from the train, here is the main problem the union are going after the what might happen and trying to use safety to justify it. It’s entirley sensible to book ahead if you need extra assistance where possible as it means the person on the train is expecting to need to use ramps etc. and where you expect to be on the paltform.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    At this stage they are not saying they are going to remove the extra person from the train – but obviously thats the plan for the future.

    Risk assessment stuff makes fairly scary reading as well

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    At this stage they are not saying they are going to remove the extra person from the train – but obviously thats the plan for the future.

    If it’s obvious the role will be removed, ipso facto that role is not required. Otherwise it wouldn’t be obvious that the role will be removed.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    So, whose sitting on a platform waiting for a train?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    “I am constantly surprised by how readily people are to give up their rights.”

    Going to court is not giving up your rights. It is actually a really important right in itself.

    It’s asking someone impartial and experienced in managing disputes and conflicting viewpoints in the context of the law to resolve the position of two parties who can’t agree

    So what is the outcome? Can a person be ordered to work under the conditions specified by a court?

    Lifer
    Free Member

    outofbreath – Member
    The 1991 Severn crash was caused by Driver error IIRC. So I that’s an argument *for* automated trains.

    Because track circuits were unreliable in the unusually wet tunnel environment (10 to 20 million gallons of water are pumped out per day),[1] axle counters were used instead. The official report into the accident[1] could not reach a firm conclusion, but speculated that the cause was either:

    an unaccountable error on the part of the Sprinter driver, or:
    technicians in the relay room at Severn Tunnel Junction had reset the axle counter while investigating the earlier fault, thus clearing the signal for the Sprinter.

    The network at the moment can’t support driverless trains, there are too many variables.

    If there’s no driver who can check if the gates of a user worked crossing have been closed properly if the person crossing doesn’t ring back? Or get out to pick up traffic cones/scaffold poles/a dog that has been placed/lost on the line? Or examine the line after report of a track defect? Or follow up on a report of something hanging from a tunnel roof?

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    The network at the moment can’t support driverless trains, there are too many variables.

    If there’s no driver who can check if the gates of a user worked crossing have been closed properly if the person crossing doesn’t ring back? Or get out to pick up traffic cones/scaffold poles/a dog that has been placed/lost on the line? Or examine the line after report of a track defect? Or follow up on a report of something hanging from a tunnel roof?

    Nothing to do with who opens the doors.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Interesting article in the Guardian. I rather liked the idea of taking industrial action through letting all the passengers on for free.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/14/southern-rail-strikes-franchise-unions

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Just done a bit of checking on industrial relations courts. Introduced by Heath and only lasted a few years, Basically it didn’t work

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Industrial_Relations_Court

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    …but conveniently ignores that the burden of lost revenues is ultimately borne by tax payers. Still I am sure he enioyed the application of Goodhart’s Law.

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    So?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Basically it didn’t work

    I wonder why?

    Ahh, yes, because:

    the unions had a policy of not co-operating with, and in many cases ignoring, the court.

    ransos
    Free Member

    …but conveniently ignores that the burden of lost revenues is ultimately borne by tax payers. Still I am sure he enioyed the application of Goodhart’s Law.

    In which case the government would have an interest in resolving the dispute.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    The NIRC was controversial throughout its short life. Donaldson, the president of the court, was known to have Conservative leanings, having stood as a Parliamentary candidate for the Conservative party and, indeed, having contributed to the drafting of the Industrial Relations Act.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    The NIRC was controversial throughout its short life. Donaldson, the president of the court, was known to have Conservative leanings, having stood as a Parliamentary candidate for the Conservative party and, indeed, having contributed to the drafting of the Industrial Relations Act.

    So you’re saying the idea NIRC is sound as long as an impartial president is chosen.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    In which case the government would have an interest in resolving the dispute.

    It certainly gives the government an interest in getting people back to work in the short term. Maybe they’re prepared to sacrifice that that for the long term good of the business. Or maybe (more likely) they have no levers to control this situation. The Unions have every right to strike, the RW firms have every right to want to modernize their businesses.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    …and passengers have a right…….oh, screw them.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “…and passengers have a right..”

    They just pay for it all, whey would they matter?

    tjagain
    Full Member

    outof breath. I’d rather a co operative approach not adversarial. Workers own a % of the business or are on profit share at decent % so have a stake in the business being profitable. Shareholders being prevented from asset stripping. Proper workers representation on the board and proper pensions schemes.

    You know – the sort of thing they do in most European countries

    ransos
    Free Member

    It certainly gives the government an interest in getting people back to work in the short term. Maybe they’re prepared to sacrifice that that for the long term good of the business. Or maybe (more likely) they have no levers to control this situation. The Unions have every right to strike, the RW firms have every right to want to modernize their businesses.

    The unions managed to come to a resolution with the other TOCs…

    I think the argument about modernizing the business is cobblers, actually. Unfortunately, positions are now so entrenched it’s difficult to see a resolution.

    …and passengers have a right…….oh, screw them.

    I can think of several fundamental rights, but the right to a convenient train service isn’t one of them.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    tjagain – Member
    outof breath. I’d rather a co operative approach not adversarial. Workers own a % of the business or are on profit share at decent % so have a stake in the business being profitable. Shareholders being prevented from asset stripping. Proper workers representation on the board and proper pensions schemes.

    You know – the sort of thing they do in most European countries

    POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST SHARE

    Hahahahahahhahahahahhahhaaaaa.

    What a crock.

    Have you been in space? I appreciate you are back here after some sort of suspension, but you must have been living on Venus since late June.

    The UK voted for a return to the 30’s and 70’s and have sweet FA to do with Yurope… and I mean ANYTHING. Culture, attitude, aptitude, intellect, shared ownership of industry.

    Jezebels blouse.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “The unions managed to come to a resolution with the other TOCs…”

    Effectively they have in this case too:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37600476

    Its all sorted, they’re just taking it out on passengers for a while.

    ransos
    Free Member

    “The unions managed to come to a resolution with the other TOCs…”

    Effectively they have in this case too:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37600476

    Its all sorted, they’re just taking it out on passengers for a while.

    From the article you quoted:
    [The RMT] said it would seek to overturn the new contracts and planned industrial action would still go ahead.

    And the current strike is by ASLEF, not just the RMT.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “From the article you quoted:
    [The RMT] said it would seek to overturn the new contracts and planned industrial action would still go ahead.
    And the current strike is by ASLEF, not just the RMT.”

    Only in the new year they’ll be making the case that the status quo is dangerous. And a status quo that almost all their members have signed up to.

    Much harder sell.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Only in the new year they’ll be making the case that the status quo is dangerous. And a status quo that almost all their members have signed up to.

    Seeing as you have a crystal ball, I suggest you buy some lottery tickets.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “Seeing as you have a crystal ball, I suggest you buy some lottery ticket”

    It’s already happened. New contracts come into effect in the new year.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Denmark and Norway have mandatory workers representation on boards

    Finland and the UK do not

    Days lost to strike action per 1000 employees 2009-2015

    Norway 76
    Denmark 69
    Finland 50
    UK 23

    Perhaps the link is not as clear as is sometimes suggested?

    El-bent
    Free Member

    The UK voted for a return to the 30’s and 70’s and have sweet FA to do with Yurope… and I mean ANYTHING. Culture, attitude, aptitude, intellect, shared ownership of industry.

    You are right. It has nothing to do with them. One can presume that included with the Brexshit shambles we are going to ignore the best practice and experience of other nations because we know best right?

    Denmark and Norway have mandatory workers representation on boards

    Finland and the UK do not

    Days lost to strike action per 1000 employees 2009-2015

    Norway 76
    Denmark 69
    Finland 50
    UK 23

    Perhaps the link is not as clear as is sometimes suggested?

    No it isn’t clear, particularly with the union laws in this country adding to the mix as well.

    ransos
    Free Member

    It’s already happened. New contracts come into effect in the new year.

    Once again, you’re talking about the RMT, not ASLEF.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Once again, you’re talking about the RMT, not ASLEF.

    Are you saying ASLEF staff are not signing the new contracts? Got a cite for that?

    ransos
    Free Member

    Are you saying ASLEF staff are not signing the new contracts? Got a cite for that?

    You are the one making assertions, not me.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    You are the one making assertions, not me.

    Yup, I’m asserting that staff have accepted the new contracts and citing an article saying that.

    Glad, you’re not disputing it. It looked like you might have been for a second. If you had been I’m sure you’d have provided evidence.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Train was on time this morning, which was nice.

    project
    Free Member

    If the driver is incapacitated or trapped in the cab and the train looses the ability to talk to the signaler, who are you going to call and will you as a passenger know where you are , and what happens in a tunnel with no or little mobile signal, thats why safety trained staff are critical on all services.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    SWT made us wait two days ago because train staff had arrived later and needed their break before getting on the train. The guard bought us all some Costas to make up for the delay, which was nice.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “safety trained staff are critical on all services.”

    In which case their jobs are safe. One more reason why they are being completely unreasonable by taking this action.

    Lifer
    Free Member

    outofbreath – Member
    “The network at the moment can’t support driverless trains, there are too many variables.
    If there’s no driver who can check if the gates of a user worked crossing have been closed properly if the person crossing doesn’t ring back? Or get out to pick up traffic cones/scaffold poles/a dog that has been placed/lost on the line? Or examine the line after report of a track defect? Or follow up on a report of something hanging from a tunnel roof?”

    Nothing to do with who opens the doors.

    I was responding to your argument for automated trains…

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