Tools for jobs innit.

I used to work on AS400s, the OS didnt actually have any way to handle running out of storage gracefully, the machine simply crashed. The solution was always just to add storage.

That’s an oxymoron. In your case, good enough is simply a higher standard.

You get what I mean though yeah, different strokes and all that. I’ve certainly worked on plenty of stuff where a pragmatic, “good enough”==”it doesn’t crash horribly” approach is perfectly acceptable too.

Ever used C++?

Same thing? It is a standardised language and it has a set of standard libraries.

Just there are lots of additional non-standardised libraries and frameworks available in addition to that standardised core.

I appreciate that about your code – that’s what I’ve been saying all along. Requirements means much more than what your code needs to do.

Yep. And that’s what I meant when I said that TurnerGuy’s test might be a good one for his job, but not yours.

Same thing? It is a standardised language and it has a set of standard libraries.

No, not really, it has several standard libraries, at least it did when I was using it – a long time ago, and not for long.

When writing code for Windows you had a choice of platforms, never mind Linux or any other nix. Far less of an issue with Java – almost a non-issue.

This thread is why I stayed in academia and pretend to be a computing scientist.

No, not really, it has several standard libraries, at least it did when I was using it – a long time ago, and not for long.

You’ve made it pretty clear that you weren’t very good at C++ 🙂

It does have a standard library, and the standard template library, and boost, which is stuff that will probably end up on the standard library but hasn’t because of the standardisation cycle.

C++ is a great language and an awful lot of the good ideas on other languages came from it and the people involved with it. The main problem is it’s verbosity.

Java libraries are not standardised, there’s always new frameworks coming along.

A book I read a while ago said that you could add up all the frameworks in every other language and you would still have less than there are in java.

For example, Spring is popular partly because of the complexity of ejb and it’s configuration. And there are many parts to to Spring. We are having trouble finding experience of the parts we want.

The trouble with relying on some of these open source frameworks is that people move on to develop other frameworks when they get bored, or competing frameworks when they have disagreements with other framework developers.

It does have a standard library, and the standard template library,

Yeah but if you are in Visual Studio there’s the Microsoft one.. and the STL only does basic stuff.. so if you want to open a window, you have a variety of choices.

Java libraries are not standardised

There are quite a lot of JSRs, IIRC… And yes, there are APIs out of the standard but plenty in it. Hibernate got absorbed into the standard for starters… then the dependency injection stuff too..

We are having trouble finding experience of the parts we want.

How important is that direct experience? Why can’t you offer it on the job? How long does it take to pick up a framework?

The trouble with relying on some of these open source frameworks is that people move on to develop other frameworks when they get bored, or competing frameworks when they have disagreements with other framework developers.

True. That’s why it’s good to have these things in a JSR – but then again, JSRs come and go out of fashion too. But at least they’re supported for a while.

properly scared the OP away from the industry now 😉

properly scared the OP away from the industry now

if you take to development then it is still pretty good as it it one of those activities where you produce something and can take some pride in it.

A bit like a civil engineer building a bridge – the difference is that our bridges are often a bit wobbly but we can patch them up later…

if you take to development then it is still pretty good as it it one of those activities where you produce something and can take some pride in it.

One of the things I like with my embedded work is that I can point out something in a shop and say “I made that”.

It’s a lot more tangible than work I’ve done on business systems and the like.

It’s also about the only time my wife, kids and parents get close to grasping what it is I actually do. 😀

You’ve already used my code several times today without knowing it 🙂

Ah, so it is missile guidance then.

That was a reference to a few projects ago – financial transaction hub I had a small but central part in. That I can talk about 🙂

Helped write a TV program authoring system. For the Japanese market – unlikely to see the fruits of *that* (and testing was interesting !!)

And DVD authoring system, so that’s more tangible I guess.

I never really got programming either. Did a Pascal evening course for a while, sort of understood things but when it came to writing my own bits I quickly got out of my depth. A few months later I got my first job which was as a VAX/VMS operator/Powerhouse programmer. I was fine at the ops stuff just crap at the Powerhouse 4GL programming. My next IT job was a Wintel consultant and I’ve never looked back (that was 18 years ago), although I’m now trying to avoid powershell scripting…

Well, I wrote a computer teaching program for Strathclyde Region primary schools, to teach children basic maths, spelling and grammar. On the BBC Micro. When I was at primary school.

So there 😀

One of the things I like with my embedded work is that I can point out something in a shop and say “I made that”.

that’s pretty much my philosophy, except in my case it’ll be “see that barely visible bright white dot zooming across the night sky” (except for the one that is 45 light minutes away, where you’ll just have to see it every time it’s on sky at night).

I hire engineers based on an ‘are they smart and do they get stuff done?’ policy. You lot fail the latter because you just spent the whole working day having a p***ing contest over tools and methodology.

+1. I had a team member recently (who left a couple of months ago) who whilst technically adept, always became obsessed with the minutiae of writing perfect code. He’d spend hours obsessing about non-important issues when he’d already solved the problem. It had me tearing my hair out on numerous occasions.

whilst technically adept, always became obsessed with the minutiae of writing perfect code

Did he ride a Turner by any chance?

Did he ride a Turner by any chance?

well it wouldn’t be me – look back at my reasoning for TDD and the fact that it helps you meet you release goals without necessarily having perfect code.

If something has to be coded up in a non-optimal way to meet the deliverable then it doesn’t matter – the importance is that the test works.

Once delivered you then refactor to make the code better, before you build on it again – otherwise the entropy of the system will increase.

If a code review at the end pointed out that you had done it the wrong way or that the code was iffy, then so what? Any code review is at the start of the next phase, probably with your pair as you design it.

If I am writing code that will be in a multithreaded/asynch environment I will stress a bit more about the code being right – it is still pretty hard to properly test such code so you will be doing you best to write it correctly in the first place.

Did he ride a Turner by any chance?

😀 Get over it mol.

The aptitude test he posted had two very obvious bugs in it that would definitely cause issues in the software.

Spotting that is really not being “obsessed with the minutiae of writing perfect code” – it’s just producing code that works correctly.

Sadly too many “JFDI” managers would be happy to accept that code because it appears to work and would pass a naive unit test with 100% code coverage.

Get over it mol.

I’m just having a laugh…

I think I’ve worked it out – molgrips is working for United Airlines ?

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/08/news/companies/united-flights-grounded-computer/

😆