If pandering to the odd pisstaker is the price to pay for living in a free & fair society then so what. It’s not like he’s having the last laugh – he’s banged up for life. The UK Government wastes far more than this on a daily basis anyway.

Whenever I see “news” like this I’m immediately suspicious about who’s gone to great lengths to ensure it ends up as a headline, and why. (see also: “benefit scroungers”).

According to the investigation, there is no crime to answer. That’s enough for me.

Probably not the end of the story for someone that understands the difference between civil and criminal law, though.

Couldn’t care less what the difference is, I’m happy that nobody under crown employment has done anything wrong.

Thats quite a jump to make,that PO’s will start targeting inmates to help their victims get compensation. But you crack on,it will fill the time till JHJ googles his name and then arrives. But you appear to be applying a double standard,they were cleared.If he is innocent till proven guilty,despite what you term as overwhelming evidence,do they not deserve the same courtesy?

It is true that PO’s have not neen convicted of anything and they are innocent until proven guilty also, I suppose the tone set by the thread assumes what would happen if they were guilty of wrong doing

I point out that if prison officers are guilty of miconduct and he receives compensation which then goes to to the victims family then it does open the door to potentially similar cases in future.

Link me with JHJ if you like but I don’t know what your problem is and am glad you are not in charge of criminal justice in your country.

This, mostly. Either we think that prisoners have the right to serve their sentences without being assaulted, or we don’t – we don’t get to make exceptions for the people we dislike the most.

Unless on online forums – where revenge fantasies may bear unlimited fantastical intricacies.

I don’t have a problem,ATG. You are the one making a case for innocent until proven guilty,unless you are the PO it would seem. All I did was mention your inconsistency in pointing out the difference between him being innocent until proven guilty(which has happened) and you suggesting that( established as innocent)PO’s will be starting to target cons to get comp for victims families.Which is a progression only you are able to make it would seem.

and am glad you are not in charge of criminal justice in your country.

Thats quite a leap;is that based on my original post about treating him with humanity and compassion to show we are better than him?(page one if you want a look)

duckman – Member

Also I don’t think he had been convicted of the crime at the time of the incident.Err yeah…He had been filmed at the scene and carrying out the attack. Even JHJ might find it hard to set him up as a fall guy for lizards living in a hollowed out volcano…Or the Bush family.

I state a fact that the 2 men had not been convicted of the murder of Lee Rigby at the time and you accuse me of being a conspiracy theory fantacist. The only person running with nonsense is you.

I also did not determine guilt of the prison officers. I did pose a question about duty of care and perhaps should also affirmed ot by stating that the officers are also innocent until proven guilty.

I was also careful to say that he “MAY” receive compensation.

wrecker – Member
Couldn’t care less what the difference is, I’m happy that nobody under crown employment has done anything wrong.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

If you knew what the difference is, you’d know why your conclusion is unsafe.

If you knew what the difference is, you’d know why your conclusion is unsafe.

I know that the police have said that there are no charges to answer, and as I said earlier that’s enough for me. Is that difficult to understand?

ATG; spirited…but you missed the bit where you said that PO’s may start beating up prisoners to get compo for victims. Perfectly reasonable theory compared to my “nonsense” obviously…

I think all claims like this could be dealt with by a piece of overriding legislation I would choose to implement. As with all the best things it would be radical yet simple.

I like to call it the “don’t take the piss” clause.

Like the relative (father I think) of the maniac who went round the Jewish kindergarten and supermarket in Paris. IIRC he tried to sue the police for using excessive force when they shot him as he jumped out of the window of the flat he was holed up in.

Invoking the “don’t take the piss” clause would have saved a lot of hand-wringing and expense down the years.

Shit happens. If the only significant injury he received was his front teeth it wasn’t much of a kicking.

Indeed its surprisingly easy to knock out peoples front teeth and , lets be honest, its what we would say if we sawan ISIS hostage with missing front teeth:?

I know that the police have said that there are no charges to answer, and as I said earlier that’s enough for me. Is that difficult to understand?

Its not difficult to understand the question is whether your stance is a prudent/wise one

Can you not understand that?

TBH i think very few of us really think the officers did not administer some instant justice, though none of us know this for a fact, we only differ in the degree to which we care.

He is an areshole but our vlaues mean we have to protect , perhaps even especially protect, the arseholes

I know that the police have said that there are no charges to answer, and as I said earlier that’s enough for me. Is that difficult to understand?

No, it’s extremely simple.

[quoteWhy don’t you think about what you said for five seconds more – particularly the phrase “you can’t have it both ways” – and consider what makes it inane?[/quote]

Hmmm, I’ve spent 10 seconds thinking and I’m still struggling to understand whats inane.

Perhaps you could explain. K.i.s.s.

*puts hand up*

Are there any actual prison officers on here who have actually dealt with actual situations that the staff in question actually dealt with on the occasion?

*taps fingers & waits, sets alarm*

Indeed its surprisingly easy to knock out peoples front teeth

Well plenty of people manage it without the help of prison officers. In a violent struggle, with the best will in the world, people can get injured.

Having been in a situation myself where someone I was struggling with got a broken leg I’m not going to judge whether the broken teeth were an accident during the struggle or not.

lets be honest, its what we would say if we sawan ISIS hostage with missing front teeth:?

I’m less inclined to believe an ISIS hostage would be fighting with his captor than a terrorist with a history of extreme violence fighting with prison officers.

duckman – Member

ATG; spirited…but you missed the bit where you said that PO’s may start beating up prisoners to get compo for victims. Perfectly reasonable theory compared to my “nonsense” obviously…

It is. Big IF PO’s are found guilty and he gets compo and as you suggest that it goes to the family of Lee Rigby it sets a legal precedent. Are you telling me that you can’t imagine the possible scenario where a UK city suffers a Paris type attack and one of the perpetrators is caught and convicted of murder? I know that sounds fanciful but let me continue. Can you not also consider the possibility of harm being brought to bear on that person either by the prison service or other inmates? I know it sounds daft doesn’t it?

The flip side would be that knowing that speaking up would be pointless then the perpetrator may be subject to abuse silently.

I will add that I am sure that the overwhelming majority of the prison service employees do a tough job well, however there are always bad apples in any line of work. This is clearly a hypothetical scenario but far from the fanciful work of make believe duckman thinks it is.

neither of those points adress what I said

1) its not easy to knock out teeth

2) You seem to be agreeing with me whilst disagreeing with me . Impressive

Perhaps you could explain. K.i.s.s.

Your point is he did not recognise our courts so we should accept this now to avoid paying him /meeting out justice. However we rejected his plea of not recognising us so that we could serve justice. It would be us having it both ways if we do as you suggest as we would be claiming lawful authority over him when it suited us and no when it suited us
HTH

Its not difficult to understand the question is whether your stance is a prudent/wise one

how can it not be? Hardly contentious. The people we entrust to uphold the law have judged that no crime was committed following an investigation. As we have not carried out an investigation, it’s not a stretch to imagine that they know significantly more than we do and are better placed to make a judgement based on more than a few clickbait headlines.
That is about as straightforward as it gets.

No, it’s extremely simple.

Apparently not simple enough……

Are there any actual prison officers on here who have actually dealt with actual situations that the staff in question actually dealt with on the occasion?

I have restrained folk trying to attack me on numerous occasions and all still have their teeth

I agree its not impossible for them to be injured when being restrained but i also know its not impossible to deliberately injure someone whilst restraining them.

I have restrained folk trying to attack me on numerous occasions and all still have their teeth

Are you C & R trained Junky? ( C & R, not personal protection)

Not for a long time and not for prisoners.

That is about as straightforward as it gets.

If they were infallible and free from bias that would indeed have made it as simple as you have described.

I get your point but if you cannot see how much your statement is just well they said so so it must be true then this “debate is pointless”. Yes that is what they have said however they , prepare yourself, sometimes tell fibs. I bet the internet has a long list of times they have fibbed.

Remember those guilty Birmingham 6 fellows they had a few “accidents” in custody as well.

umbrella is mistaken for a machete

I have a feeling that someone of a certain demographic, is going to get shot soon 🙁

It’s not the first time this has happend

The police have not judged the prison officers innocent at best they have decided that they ( the crown ) do not have a better than 50/50 chance of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the officers are guilty of a deliberate or reckless assault. So not an assertion of innocence in a moral sense at all.
To succeeded in a civil claim the prisoner will just have to on the ballance of probabilities ie 51/40 that the prison officers failed in their duty of care to him . So different test and different wrong doing or indeed failure to act.

I get your point but if you cannot see how much your statement is just well they said so so it must be true then this “debate is pointless”.

No, my point is that we trust them to do this stuff. It’s why they exist, and they know far more than we do.
All we have are suspicions. Am I even slightly concerned that he’s had his teeth knocked out? not at all. I utterly despise the pair of them.
I’m not saying I’m comfortable with screws knocking prisoners about ( that’s not their role) disappointed the cons haven’t had a good crack at them though (that is their role 😉 )

Reluctantly I agree with you. 😛

Eh;right you are ATG….

Am I even slightly concerned that he’s had his teeth knocked out? not at all.

I am – who’s had to pay for his dental treatment?

Muggins the taxpayer, that’s who.

😀
If it makes you feel better, they’ll do a shit job.

disappointed the cons haven’t had a good crack at them though (that is their role )

Am I right in thinking that you are disappointed that ‘the cons haven’t had a good crack at them’ (‘them’ being prison staff. IE me)

Please clarify.

no he means at the other cons having a pop at the toothless guy and his convicted pal.

You wear a uniform , he **** loves you 😉

Please clarify.

My Grandad and dad were screws and my sister still is. What do you reckon? 🙂

That the sight of a uniform sets your synapses firing with all sorts of unresolved daddy issues?

My Grandad and dad were screws and my sister still is. What do you reckon?

Affirmative & clarified. Thanks.

However we do have a duty of care & I’m sure Grandad, Dad & Sis will agree with this but when your’e rolling around a cell full of furniture & stuff, people get injured, including staff. If a prisoner is being ‘non compliant’ & ‘reasonable force’ needs to be used then things get broken. (including teeth/wrists/arms etc of both prisoners & staff.

Hehe. Good one. You’ve really done me there, bunny. You should be very proud of yourself. Extra points for clever word.

However we do have a duty of care & I’m sure Grandad, Dad & Sis will agree with this but when your’e rolling around a cell full of furniture & stuff, people get injured, including staff. If a prisoner is being ‘non compliant’ & ‘reasonable force’ needs to be used then things get broken. (including teeth/wrists/arms etc of both prisoners & staff.

Yep, daddy (sobs…..) was a C&R instructor. He used to come home in tatters sometimes.

C&R instructor.

Where was he based Wrecker? I’m just your basic screw but we have instructors at our place who train mainly at Lindholme.

This fouker deserves everything he gets. Look at this part of the thread title “Chop someone head off”

Do you reckon it was a clean, one swing chop and the head off and instant painless death?

Its not a ninja film with a one off cut, think about how difficult it is to actually be-head someone….

Its a continued, painful hacking to get through the skin, flesh, muscle, bone and spinal cord.

Nice thought, do you agree?

Where was he based Wrecker? I’m just your basic screw but we have instructors at our place who train mainly at Lindholme.

He retired a few years ago. He was at a few places but ended up at one of the Sheppey jails (Elmey maybe?) BIG drinker. My grandad, now there was an interesting character. Was prison eating champion (comp was at the union do’s apparently) and by all accounts a very rubbish officer. He was a lazy so and so, may he rest in peace.

My grandad, now there was an interesting character. Was prison eating champion (comp was at the union do’s apparently) and by all accounts a very rubbish officer. He was a lazy so and so, may he rest in peace.

Old school then. We had a P.O. who’d go toe to toe with any con, no matter how ‘hard’ they said they were. He’s take his keys off after unlocking the cell door & actually lock himself in with the prisoner & just go for it, no questions asked or answered afterwards. No holds barred & no grudges held.
From what I’ve heard, he never lost.
He’d even whack staff once in a while, if he liked them.