Viewing 40 posts - 21,561 through 21,600 (of 21,869 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • MSP
    Full Member

    Labour says it will stick with workers’ rights plans despite Mandelson remarks

    I would rather they hadn’t voiced their support for the reforms, now they have it can only be a matter of time until the inevatable u-turn.

    intheborders
    Free Member

    There are some people who get stuff done and others who just put up excuses.  I will leave it at that.

    I’ve worked for many Managers and ‘Leaders’ over the years who spouted bollox like this too.

    One of the benefits of having spent 30 years in a audit-type roles is having the ability & experience to see straight through these kind of people AND write their ‘post-mortems’ 🙂

    BillMC
    Full Member

    He’s done that many U-turns, what’s the odds that once elected he U-turns again and turns out to be an orthodox Trotskyist republican and Reeves starts banging on about absolute and relative surplus value?

    Hmmmm, thought not.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    I have no idea if Starmer will perform a U-turn on workers rights, hopefully he won’t. But I do know that that Starmer is occasionally consistent and reliable over certain things.

    This includes being supportive of Israelis who are accused of war crimes. Back in the days when he was Director of Public Prosecutions he used his position to protect an Israeli politician who faced arrest for alleged war crimes.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5E7L62ND/

    “Britain’s Director of Public Prosecutions has blocked an attempt to seek the arrest of Israeli opposition leader Tzipi Livni for alleged war crimes during a visit to Britain, officials said on Thursday.”

    European prosecutors were less sympathetic than Starmer over Israeli politicians accused of war crimes

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1/23/tzipi-livni-cancels-brussels-trip-amid-threat-of-arrest

    “Ex-foreign minister cancels Brussels visit after prosecutors said they would question her over war crimes allegations.”

    Starmer – consistently helping Israeli politicians accused of war crimes over many years.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Different laws/jurisdictions.

    In Belgium the investigation (and any possible prosecution) was in relation to the death of a citizen of Belgium under their national law.

    Starmer’s decision would have been informed by UK law.

    rone
    Full Member

    kelvin
    Full Member

    As I said, UK law… put in place by a government without any Labour involvement. What’s the complaint here then, that he did his job… but you’d rather he acted as he if was creating law not acting within it? What would the basis of arrest be? How would that get around UK law?

    As for the lack of transparency… who’s decision is it now to withhold the details of the process that occurred back then… and is there anything unusual about that happening in this case?

    johnx2
    Free Member

    It’s his previous employer’s decision what to release under FOI, and when starmer was employed as a lawyer it was his job to advise on the law, and make prosecution decisions accordingly.

    I expect to see more of these types of empty smear as an election nears.

    argee
    Full Member

    Maybe it’s worth looking two years earlier when Livni had the same issue with universal jurisdiction charges against her, which were dropped and she got an apology from the PM, Gordon Brown, at the time.

    I believe there are groups with links in the middle east who raise these charges in Europe and the UK against a lot of Israeli personnel, i don’t think there’s ever been an arrest made under this of an Israeli official, anywhere, but hey, that would ruin yet another ‘it’s all Keir’s fault’ post from some fringe lunatic off twitter 🤣

    rone
    Full Member

    Mark Blyth knows his economics.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    I bet he’s proud of what he’s done to keep Assange incarcerated without trial, ‘don’t you dare’ drop the allegations to the Swedes. Sums him up.

    rone
    Full Member

    Well yeah of course.

    Oh.

    https://twitter.com/Feargal_Sharkey/status/1773252137440395616?t=GwhZsz8841Ism_5oSKgLZg&s=19

    Got ya.

    Do it once and **** them all off.

    I’m sure there will be someone along in minute to defend Sunak and Starmer’s position on this. Because they’re the same.

    Imagine pursuing neoliberal solutions when all you end up with is a shit fest?

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Worthwhile posting this here, You’ve probably heard of Gary by now.

    rone
    Full Member

    Yeah I watch him a fair bit.

    Look at Reform in this poll:

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    https://twitter.com/wethinkpolling/status/1773364694352322780

    The very latest opinion poll, which was conducted today and yesterday, gives Reform UK a much less generous level of support.

    The YouGov poll giving Labour only 40% share of the vote is worrying. That is exactly the same level of support that Labour received in the 2017 general election – which they didn’t win.

    Obviously the big difference is that the Tories are now deeply unpopular and losing a significant amount of votes to Reform UK, but with a margin of error of about 3% if Reform UK voters suddenly back the Tories on election day, the very thing papers like the Daily Mail and the Sun might urge them to do, it could deny Starmer a majority.

    Which would be a disaster in my opinion – even more claims of the need to “compromise” undoubtedly.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Just shows around 35% of voters really don’t care. To bump up their vote share though Labour need to move further right or at least appeal more to the leftish end on the conservative voters. Moving leftwards might hoover up a few Lib dem / green votes but the bulk of votes needed are more right wing.

    The worrying thing is people still hate Labour, many can’t get over the Corbynesque caricatures.

    Had a really depressing conversation the other day with a neighbour, typical working class Tory, got his own business having worked his way up from being on the tools, it’s all the fault of immigrants and the conservatives have looked after him (business grants, Covid support etc. all on the back of him probably not declaring everything through the books, it’s the sort of business that can put jobs through cash without leaving a trace). The most mental thing he said was all Labour politicians are corrupt and looking out for themselves, bit rich given his (probable) tax avoidance status, but eff me given the behaviour of the Tories over the last 10 years he still levelled that accusation at Labour MPs. Really don’t know what Labour need to do to overcome dyed in the wool prejudice like that.

    Mind you he topped it off saying he thought he might vote reform. When I pointed out Reform are effectively a privately run vehicle for various mouth pieces bank rolled by a really dubious individual his eyes just glazed over, cos you know immigrants and stuff.

    argee
    Full Member

    One thing that is signalling the white flag for the tories is the amount of MPs who are not standing at the next election, this will mean a lot of fighting going on within the tory party for nominations, will Rishi get his type of candidate, or are the weirdo’s at the right of him going to start pushing for their candidates.

    Labour just need to not get bogged down in any of the fighting, or any of the negative press, which is already spinning up with the usual ‘do you still beat your wife’ questions for the labour leadership.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    To bump up their vote share though Labour need to move further right

    I know it sounds crazy but how about not doing that and instead coming up with a compelling argument which makes the case for alternative policies and points out that Tory right-wing policies are wrong?

    You cannot expect voters to believe your policies are correct if you have so little faith in them yourself.

    Really don’t know what Labour need to do to overcome dyed in the wool prejudice like that.

    But you just gave your solution – move further right.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Meh whatever, the point is there’s a large number of ignorant voters out there which kinda blows your argument out of the water regarding compelling arguments, they arent listening full stop. The other fact is there’s more votes to the right of Labour than to the left. FWIW I wasnt suggesting Labour move further to the right, more that shift back to the left before the election would be suicidal. As a despised centrist I’m quite happy with Labour’s current placement, ironic really as given my background and current income levels which should make me a solid Tory supporter but I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire. But then I’ve paid attention to the appalling policies and behaviour of the current Tory regime, shame a few more haven’t.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    The most mental thing he said was all Labour politicians are corrupt and looking out for themselves, bit rich given his (probable) tax avoidance status, but eff me given the behaviour of the Tories over the last 10 years he still levelled that accusation at Labour MPs

    I keep hearing stuff like this and it’s insane. Maybe there are some bad apples in Labour but **** me, how the hell can you prefer to stick with the Tories after their proven track record of greed and corruption.

    I tend to start my response with “lying g to tne Queen” as it seems to make them pay attention.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    I wasnt suggesting Labour move further to the right

    Yes you did. “To bump up their vote share though Labour need to move further right” is what you said.

    I love the way you dismiss the suggestion that Labour need to come up with compelling arguments for their policies btw,.

    Do you understand how politics works, not just in the UK but throughout the world? No it doesn’t simply rely on stealing your political opponents clothes.

    rone
    Full Member

    The other fact is there’s more votes to the right of Labour than to the left.

    Those votes aren’t automatic.

    If the main parties keep telling people how amazing all these conservative policies are – and given no choice – who the hell are they going to vote for?

    You appear to be falling into the trap of hating the Tories but if done properly conservatism could be good for us.

    The policy is the problem. And left wing policies are popular.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Maybe it would, that’s the point of proper politics, people have different opinikns on how to get to a better society. Unfortunatrly we have the reality TV version of politics the Tories champion. Not everybody believes the chuck money approach would actually work or give us the desired outcome of a more equitable society.

    But to be honest I can’t be bothered discussing this further as there will be the inevitable pile on from the usual suspects as an actually debate isn’t allowed and anyone right of Corbyn is selfish scum.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Yes you did. “To bump up their vote share though Labour need to move further right” is what you said.

    Well yes apart from that minor detail.

    I do also like how they announce that despite being a natural tory they are now happy with labour without thinking hmmmm is there a problem there?

    Its the depressing thing about the right wingers. After **** up the country and their party they now want labour as a consolation prize rather than putting the work into getting a sensible tory party back.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    And there we go…

    First I’m not Tory and haven’t voted Tory for a very long time, hell I voted for Corbyn’s Labour. The point I was trying to make is that the current Tory party has lost its core vote by moving into batshit mental territory, this is good for Labour.

    Second I don’t consider myself to be right wing, I believe, actually you know what I can’t be bothered, you won’t bother reading what I write, you’ll just be insulting and misconstrued what I say.

    Politics doesn’t need to be so confrontational and tribal, Corbyn actually had that right. My views have changed since being a member of this forum, my views have definitely moved leftward, shame the dullards in this thread arent able to discuss different view points without being so closed and confrontational to any idea that doesn’t fit their narrative.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    the dullards in this thread arent able to discuss different view points without being so closed and confrontational

    The problem with lack of awareness is that people aren’t aware of their lack of awareness.

    I point out that a YouGov poll out today has Labour’s share of the vote at exactly the same level as they got in the 2017 general election, which is slightly worrying not least because if the Tories draw back some of the support they have lost to Reform UK on election day it might rob Starmer of a majority..

    Your immediate response, from the person who talks of usual suspects, is to very predictably claim that Labour need to move further right. When this is challenged, you, also very predictably,  accuse others of being confrontational, after calling them dullards. 

    I do agree with you that politics doesn’t have to be “confrontational and tribal”. So that’s at least one thing.

    dazh
    Full Member

    And there we go…

    Did I miss something the mods deleted? I saw some mild discussion where a couple of people offered a different opinion, is that what a ‘pile-on’ is now?

    Always amused that the lefties on here are always accused of being abusive or argumentative when in reality they’re always on the receiving end. Classic social media cancellation. If someone disagrees, accuse them of being abusive. Or in the case of this place, bang on about thread derailment. 🙄

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    @dazh it’s nothing to do with left vs right, it’s a combination of people’s inability to write, peoples inability to read and the tendency of some people to just plain make shit up to suit or cause an argument. On both sides.


    @stumpyjon
    to be fair that wasn’t how you came across in your posts, I certainly read it the same as others did. Now you’ve cleared that up I’d like to think people will act on that but frankly, for the reasons above, I doubt it.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2024-04-01/councillors-resign-from-labour-party-over-bullying-claims

    I think that brings the total to approximately one hundred councillors who have resigned from the Labour Party in the last six months.

    That is a lot of councillors for a party which is clearly on an electoral winning streak to lose.

    Luckily for Labour because Starmer is of little threat to the establishment, and the Tory press don’t have much of a problem with him, it doesn’t produce much in the way of negative headlines.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    1.5% not a staggeringly large percentage and all on basically the same (whilst globally important) side issue for UK politics. I doubt Starmer is that worried either, saves him having to purge a load more outliers and hopefully avoids another Rochdale type cock up. The latest 20 are from Pendle which is not very representative of Labour areas as a whole, bit like Rochdale isn’t. It’s a single issue protest, and one that’s not that direcrly relevant to the daily lives of most people in this country.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    Starmer doesn’t have to be worried but it’s a gift to the opposition. No matter the reason they don’t want to hold power in his party. That will be spun for all it’s worth. Labour are not great at timing their implosions.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Yeah, I doubt that, the Tories haven’t made a big deal out of the other councillor resignations. The reason for their resignation does not fit well with Tory ideology either so can’t see them wanting to be seen to be supporting the Pendle councillors over this, it’s not exactly on Tory brand. It’s not even on the BBC website front page, it’s hidden in the Lancashire section.

    MSP
    Full Member

    saves him having to purge a load more outliers

    You say that like it’s a good thing. Personally I find the authoritarianism purging of progressive voices from labor rather disturbing, the fabrication of “evidence” to be used against labour members and activists does not bode well for the direction a Starmer government would take.

    Starmer might not need to be worried, but we should be.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Er yes, anything that stops Labour having an internal implosion as onehundredthidiot puts it makes them more likely to actually get into power, which is as we keep having to remind people on this thread is a good thing. Anyway it’s not like purging the dissenters is a Starmer thing, Corbyn had a pretty good go but mucked it up like everything else he did. It’s also a big leap from a few councillors resigning over a non core side issue to authoritarianism purging of progressive voices. I’m pretty sure the councillors involved were not the parties most progressive visionaries.

    I’m a lot less worried about purging of the fringes of the Labour party to the wholesale purging of anyone with half a grip on reality from the government. Let’s get things in proportion and remember why we’re in this mess.

    rone
    Full Member

    Let’s get things in proportion and remember why we’re in this mess

    We’re in this damn mess because of failed Conservative policies – the like of which Starmer and co are showing no signs of moving away from.

    Centrists are only adding more pain to the long term discourse with this ridiculous pathway of election vibes at all cost.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I think that brings the total to approximately one hundred councillors

    Labour have currently nearly 6500 councillors in the UK, and I’d bet money that more than 100 hand in their notice, or don’t stand again each time there’s elections for any number of reasons, that will go from pretty mundane – too much work, not enough time, etc etc all the way to folks who’ve been side-lined for offences or disagreements or sacked.  20 in one council seems like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things, probably doesn’t shift the dial much.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    this ridiculous pathway of election vibes at all cost.

    You’re so right it’s the taking part that counts.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    which is as we keep having to remind people on this thread is a good thing.

    As we keep having to remind you its not so simple as that. Where do you draw the line at getting power?

    Anyway it’s not like purging the dissenters is a Starmer thing, Corbyn had a pretty good go but mucked it up like everything else he did

    Did he? I am sure you can provide the evidence showing Corbyn supporting this claim?

    It’s also a big leap from a few councillors resigning over a non core side issue to authoritarianism purging of progressive voices.

    Uh huh and yet compass and other centre left organisations have been targeted by Starmers team and dont have the same confidence you have in the glorious leader.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Uh huh and yet compass and other centre left organisations have been targeted by Starmers team

    Neal Lawson (head of Compass) was told off by Labour for publishing support for another party (The Greens) last summer in a tweet, that’s basic Labour party rules. While you might support pluralism, and tactical voting, the official party line is that you don’t. So y’know, make a choice, accept the party line and support only Labour candidates, or don’t, and risk expulsion. But to make it look like you’re being “targeted” by Starmer’s team, certainly  makes it sound much more Machiavellian and exciting

    ransos
    Free Member

    You’re so right it’s the taking part that counts.

    Said no-one. Though some of us care about what happens on day two.

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