I still have no idea why who I mix with has any relevance.

The relevance is… if you’re safely cocooned from the effects he is having on society with his divide and rule approach, then of course you might be happy to defend it.

No I don’t exist. You’ve been spending too much time on stw

Wow impressive editing Kelvin, even by your standards.

Although not so much editing more ‘replacing one post with another completely different post’.

then of course you might be happy to defend it.

So I’m defending Johnson now? By that same logic I can’t challenge anyone who claims that Johnson eats babies?

Get a grip.

I can’t challenge anyone who claims that Johnson eats babies?

Are you for real?

Is he friends with Biden? I hear he eats babies, too.

The biggest surprise is that the managerial competence we all assumed he’d have seems to be entirely absent. Clearly running the CPS, filled with professional and obedient staff is no preparation for running a party of largely self-interested and ruthlessly ambitious MPs, and a membership of consisting mostly of young idealists with dreams of a radically different world to what we have now.

Corbyn was a leader for the membership, Starmer a leader for the PLP (not even that TBH, more a leader for a blairite cabal). Until labour find someone who can do both they’re f*****. If the schism between the PLP and the members can’t be resolved, then labour should split or disband. Let the MPs go and do a SDP/Change UK, and let the membership and wider movement start afresh with new candidates who are part of their communities.

Spot on. Pretty much what I’ve been saying all along. But I’d add that the membership also contains a lot of old school ‘lefties’ who are sick to the back teeth of the Blairites/neoliberals, and who despair at the direction the party has taken. I think unless Labour do find a new messiah, a schism is inevitable. The wealthy elite of the party would most likely retain the ‘brand’, but it would then at least create a blank slate for a new, more centre left social democrat party with greater representation from the ordinary electorate. Really needs to happen in my opinion. But the neoliberal Blairites would then up in political no-man’s land, and no longer be relevant. They know this, which is why they are desperate to cling onto ‘power’, even if it means **** over millions of ordinary working people. ****.

Well he does produce a lot of babies that nobody ever sees and he is a bit fat so…

Spot on. Pretty much what I’ve been saying all along. But I’d add that the membership also contains a lot of old school ‘lefties’ who are sick to the back teeth of the Blairites/neoliberals, and who despair at the direction the party has taken. I think unless Labour do find a new messiah, a schism is inevitable. The wealthy elite of the party would most likely retain the ‘brand’, but it would then at least create a blank slate for a new, more centre left social democrat party with greater representation from the ordinary electorate. Really needs to happen in my opinion. But the neoliberal Blairites would then up in political no-man’s land, and no longer be relevant. They know this, which is why they are desperate to cling onto ‘power’, even if it means **** over millions of ordinary working people. ****.

Whatever you are taking I suggest lowering the dose, a lot. But do it gradually though otherwise it could get even worse.

I know some of you will turn your nose up at anything written by Owen Jones

The problem with Owen Jones, is that whilst he’s a clever lad, and does seem to genuinely give a shit about others, he never really comes up with anything original. Simply rehashes stuff that other people have said, often weeks, even months previously. Creates a sort of ‘Guardianised’ version for the metropolitan middle class elite. And Binners. But he shows his true white middle class blinkered privilege with comments like this:

“Muslim party members resentfully mutter that candidates from their community were overlooked”

Which is pretty much the same sort of attitude many of the Labour elite have, towards the Minorities. They’ll make the right sort of noises about fighting racism, how unfair it all is, but they don’t want to actually live next door to anyone who is a bit different. See also that ‘Funny Tinge’ idiot whose name I can’t even be bothered to remember. Sums up the elite’s attitude towards many of their voters; ‘just do what we decide is good for you’. Way to go. That’s working out so well, isn’t it?

Ah, good old Gorgeous George Galloway.

I had a lot of time for Galloway, when he bloodied the noses of the Blairites in Tower Hamlets. My wife was teaching in the borough at the time, in a school with a predominantly Bangladeshi intake, and the incumbent at the time, Oona King, routinely overlooked real needs of local people, particularly the minority groups and most vulnerable, in order to court the developers at Canary Wharf and Docklands. Something needed to change, and it did, and the nice white middle class Labour elite were incensed and declared war on the ordinary working people of that borough. Still, Oona and her friends did very well out of property in the borough, so that’s all great. Galloway, sadly, then went on a path of self-destruction, by making some incredibly stupid career choices, then descending into a grotesque caricature trotting out anti-Semitic tropes to appeal to his largely Muslim* fan base; mostly people from poorer, deprived areas with a paucity of educational provision and opportunities. But that just revealed further the extent of actual (not imagined) anti-Semitism in our society, and the issues which many were rightly extremely concerned with, and which the Labour right gleefully leapt on in order to weaponise against all on the left. Galloway is a mendacious, manipulative ****, who has a hell of a lot to answer for. It’s depressing how many are taken in by his ‘charm’. But there are still many in the upper echelons of the party, who are just as xenophobic towards other minority groups; see aforementioned Funny Tinge Woman.

*Just feel I should point out that I don’t believe all Muslims are inherently anti-Semitic, any more than the rest of the population; the situation with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians is extremely emotive and polarising, and many Muslims will feel an affinity towards their ‘brethren’, rather than see that it’s a situation that needs to examined far more in terms of its myriad nuances. But I wondered earlier if cancelling his appearance at an Iftar event would come back to bite Starmer on the bum, and it seems it has. It was seen by many, as him favouring one group over another, and he allowed himself to be played by those who seek to divide and rule. He’s clueless and out of his depth. And losing support. Will Starmer be the ‘leader’ who oversees the death of the Labour party?

Whatever you are taking I suggest lowering the dose, a lot. But do it gradually though otherwise it could get even worse.

Nice. Insinuating mental illness/substance abuse now, simply because you don’t agree with what I say. Incapable of actually engaging intelligently, so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Classy.

I pity you.

Creates a sort of ‘Guardianised’ version for the metropolitan middle class elite.

Well he works primarily for the guardian so I suppose that’s no great surprise. Really though I’ve never really detected any ‘metropolitan miiddle class elite’ stuff from Jones. He may by definition be a member of that group, but his background, and more importantly his activism and writing suggest he’s done more than many ‘working class’ people on the left to further the interests of working people. By all means have a go at middle class tories who can’t see past their range rover and second home in the Dordogne, but Owen Jones really isn’t someone the left should be having a go at. In fact I do wonder whether the problem people have with him is less to do with class more to do with something else.

Owen Jones is good at what he does.

He’s a force for good. He’s been guilty of flip-flopping his support within a couple of days on issues but he admits he changes his mind! He gets a ridiculous amount of vile abuse – the ‘left’ need to remember this when giving him such a hard time.

Lots of people hate him and he does get a lot of stick which to me is painfully undeserved – he gives a shit about the welfare of people. That’s all I need.

He has decent guests on his show too.

I like the Novara crew – their journalism is actually good and well researched. They are left but are critical of the left too where the evidence goes.

They are behind the curve economically though, Bastani came close when he realised how much the Government spending was not connected to borrowing during 2020.

They did very well through the pandemic calling out the likes of Julia Hartley-Brewer’s ‘evidence’.

They deserve a bigger platform, and put out great little features such as the one about the Amazon bricks and mortar store.

(Yeah Galloway – he has some interesting credentials – when he did the Iraq war take-apart to the American sentate, he was very impressive. But he never recovered from the Big Brother era to me.)

Nice. Insinuating mental illness/substance abuse now, simply because you don’t agree with what I say.

Nothing to do with agreeing with what you say, just more about the nutty ranting and clearly said in jest but never mind.

The big weakness of OJ is his taking up the AS attacks on JC to keep his job at the Guardian. With the consistency of a jellyfish he helps this apartheid-supporting organ seem liberal and progressive. Bit of a challenge these days for the MSM to write about Starmer’s strengths and successes but they do try.
OJ comes nowhere near to past serious Guardian journalists like Nick Davies and Paul Foot.

The big weakness of OJ is his taking up the AS attacks on JC to keep his job at the Guardian.

I can’t remember that. I remember him acknowledging the problem of AS for labour and how they need to get ahead of it, but it’s quite a stretch, and not a little paranoid to suggest he piled on with the AS stuff to keep his employers happy. To repeat again, the left could do themselves a massive favour by abandoning this outdated class warfare bollox. Yes, many of the underlying problems we have today are still class-based (and many aren’t), but no one is interested in the 20th century class war, and from what I’ve seen, OJ does a very good job at framing traditional class issues in a modern context. The ‘old left’ could learn a lot from him.

Where’s binners with his pictures when you need him? 😄

OJ does a very good job at framing traditional class issues in a modern context. The ‘old left’ could learn a lot from him

He flipflops faster than Burnham

He may have some half decent insights but there is a lot more chaff than wheat in his output

By all means have a go at middle class tories who can’t see past their range rover and second home in the Dordogne, but Owen Jones really isn’t someone the left should be having a go at

Not ‘having a go’ at OJ, just that what he is good at, is creating products for the consumption of Guardian readers. And in fact, many Guardian readers do fit the ‘range rover and second home in the Dordogne’ profile; certainly, several of its senior editors do! And yes, it is also (allegedly) read in the Rose and Crown, Ramsbottom. Albeit by just one person.

OJ tends to bend with the prevailing wind; he jumped on the pro Corbyn bandwagon once he realised there was capital to be made for his own brand image. But in my opinion, he rarely says anything original, he’s more of a clever plagiarist. But if we are to engage with the issues he’s raised in that article above, then I find it a lot more helpful to read something like this article by Paul Mason, which examines a lot more deeply, the nuances of the situation in places like Batley and Spen:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/06/threat-labour-defeat-batley-and-spen-shows-party-facing-perfect-storm

The consensus here, is that Labour isn’t listening to it’s voters. And losing them. And this is pretty much all down to the elitist right of the party, who are all far more about personal wealth and power, than they are about representing the needs of their party’s members and voters. We saw with the London mayoral elections of 2000, that the Blairite choice of Frank Dobson was hugely unpopular, and resulted in a humiliating defeat for Blair, in spite of his best efforts to rig the elections in his favour. Labour realised then that they had to cede to democracy, and that was probably the moment Blair realised he needed a decent exit strategy. But subsequent Labour figures haven’t learned from that massive failure, and here we are, with supposedly intelligent people wondering why ‘thick’ people won’t vote for them…

But in my opinion, he rarely says anything original, he’s more of a clever plagiarist.

Honestly a lot of these points are pretty silly. He’s a journalist, it’s his actual job to provide content for Guardian readers, and he does an extremely good job at communicating what can be pretty boring, academic discussions and issues into language normal people, especially the young, can understand. You call it plagiarism, I call it story telling.

Anyway, enough about OJ, back on topic. I see Starmer’s big idea is to pinch one of Hilary Clinton’s ideas, because that was so stunningly successful in making her president 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/16/keir-starmer-picks-stonger-together-slogan-used-by-hillary-clinton-to-rebrand

Yup, he gathers anecdotes and repeats points made elsewhere, for sure… but that is because he is a column writer, and opinion piece provider. Perhaps not calling him a journalist would help. He gets SO much stick from so many directions. Some if it is very nasty, and completely undeserved. But some if it is because when he flips direction (as we should all be willing to do as things change around us) he has a tendency to be very dismissive of people holding a view that he himself held very recently, or goes on to hold tomorrow. That riles a lot of people, of all political persuasions, that like people to either be more consistent or more understanding of fellow political travellers taking a different position.

“Stronger Together” …. did that come from Scottish Labour?

The tories latest right to work at home/right to flexible working mumblings seem more progressive than anything Starmer has to say too.

He’s a journalist, it’s his actual job to provide content for Guardian readers

And that’s the issue. He can’t speak to other groups, because he lacks the experience of living and moving outside of his safe little middle class ‘bubble’. OJ will be found in trendy restaurants in Islington and Highgate*, not working mens clubs in Barnsley or Bolton. Someone like Mason will have moved around a lot more, and had interactions with a far more diverse range of people. We need to hear from a wider range of voices, not just those the Guardian editors deem acceptable and safe.

*I’ve actually seen him in a cafe even I wouldn’t eat in. Far too posh for me! I walked past and went to the much cheaper (and better) place down the road. 😉

“Stronger Together” …. did that come from Scottish Labour?

Hilary Clinton – that well know vote winner and not at all divisive politician

He can’t speak to other groups, because he lacks the experience of living and moving outside of his safe little middle class ‘bubble’.

This simply isn’t true. He makes more effort to speak to, and mix with, people in the “real world” than most other column writers, from any paper. I often disagree with him, strongly, but he doesn’t deserve that kind of character assassination.

Must say my day’s happiness has gone through the roof to hear that we’ve moved on from C20th class relations of production. Blimey, a revolution and I didn’t even notice. What is the system called now?

And this is pretty much all down to the elitist right of the party

Let’s not forget that it was elitist left of the party (the likes of millionaires like Seamus Milne, and Union Bosses) who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.

he’s more of a clever plagiarist.

Oh? do lets have some examples of the times he’s actually stolen verbatim copy from other people and passed it off as his own work. I’d be surprised if a prominent journo could get away with it TBH.

Edit:  Removed the landed Gentry bit, that’s not him.

What is the system called now?

We’re All **** – Buy More Shit

Oh? do lets have some examples of the times he’s actually stolen verbatim copy from other people and passed it off as his own work. I’d be surprised if a prominent journo could get away with it TBH.

It’s more the way he’ll do an article for the Guardian, which will involve issues already discussed/reported by others. So perhaps not direct plagiarism, but definitely letting others do the hard work.

This simply isn’t true. He makes more effort to speak to, and mix with, people in the “real world” than most other column writers, from any paper.

Lol! I know people who know him, and he’s really not one for venturing far from comfort. But you’re missing the point; which is that there are far more voices out there than just OJ’s. But OJ is very skilled at using his privilege to be heard, over others. Which illustrates the point about middle class elitism; if you continue assuming you know better than others, because of your class, wealth and privilege, then you will run into trouble. OJ is fine; he makes the right noises, I’ve nothing against him and he does seem to genuinely care.I’ve already said that. So don’t be so touchy.

Let’s not forget that it was elitist left of the party (the likes of millionaires like Seamus Milne, and Union Bosses) who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.

Very good. Do you also write for GB News? 😀

Lol! I know people who know him, and he’s really not one for venturing far from comfort

Maybe something to do with being assaulted for his political views/sexuality eh?

who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.

Thank god we now have a sensible centrist in charge and they’ve all come flooding back to Labour in their droves.

So perhaps not direct plagiarism.

So, not a plagiarist then? I mean I’ve read one of his books and it was pretty loosey-goosy with stats, so you could’ve picked him up on that, but just to claim that he steals work to make your point is lame.

So don’t be so touchy.

Oh teh ironing (as the young kids probably don’t say) says the man with the lightest of hair triggers.

Here’s OJ talking absolute perfect sense (just for balance, like. because it seems some people are a bit upset about OJ being criticised):

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/owen-jones-far-right-extremism-assault/

The attack on OJ was beyond vile. But he’s spot on that extremist ‘hate preachers’ need to be tackled and brought to account.

Maybe something to do with being assaulted for his political views/sexuality eh?

Yes, that is a valid point and may certainly have an affect on how OJ moves around and the places he chooses to visit. I accept that. But I meant more how he suffers that typical middle class trait of not being able to fully empathise with others, because their own experience is quite ‘contained’. For example, I wouldn’t expect OJ to be able to interact with and relate to people outside of his own social group as well as someone like Paul Mason, who has moved in much more diverse circles during his life and career.

Oh teh ironing (as the young kids probably don’t say) says the man with the lightest of hair triggers.

No please; don’t stop there, why not make insinuations about my mental health? Seems that is a legitimate area for comedy, after all. Again with the ad hominems; proves you’ve lost the argument. An argument on the internet. Go you! 😀

We’re All **** – Buy More Shit

Indeed. One thing I can never get my head around with much of the ‘old left’ stuff is the obession with materialism, either in the form of enabling poorer people to buy more stuff, or stopping rich people from buying too much. It’s the 20th century in a nutshell, but today’s problems such as climate change, environmental destruction, resource depletion and the erosion of democracy are much more fundamental. The question for labour and the left shouldn’t be how do we increase incomes so people can consume more, but how do we enable people to work less and enjoy life more whilst living securely and sustainably.

securely and sustainably

Nail on head.

 Again with the ad hominems

I’d point you to the fact that I was quoting you, but that would seem churlish. Go You, indeed.

 proves you’ve lost the argument.

We’re not arguing, I’m pointing out that you’re making shit up. It’s literally the opposite of an argument. Christ, you’re not very good at this, are you?

A materialist analysis focuses on the relations of production, the expropriation of surplus value and the consequent accumulation of capital, not on people’s shopping bags. Having said that, I’m always up for a bit of champagne socialism.

We’re not arguing

Ha ha! 😀 Very, very good. You really are much funnier than that other bloke.

Christ, you’re not very good at this, are you?

Oh I’m brilliant. You’re the one with your knickers in a twist, all wound up and hurling thinly veiled insults around. Without actually understanding things. Such as irony. 😉

not on people’s shopping bags

Where do you think the money goes? This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it’s still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they’d rather not be doing, in the interests of some ‘greater good’. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it’s the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You’re banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It’s bloody stupid.

 The question for labour and the left shouldn’t be how do we increase incomes so people can consume more, but how do we enable people to work less and enjoy life more whilst living securely and sustainably.

Tough message to sell to many many folk who’re still working multiple fragile jobs to make ends meet. Those folk do want more money to spend on more crap, they need more money just to live.

This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it’s still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they’d rather not be doing, in the interests of some ‘greater good’. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it’s the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You’re banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It’s bloody stupid.

Hmm. An interesting analysis. The difference being, however, that Socialism does at least call for a better society for ALL, rather than just for an elite few. Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them. The main problem with the current capitalist system, is that it helps perpetuate that horrible class system you keep wanting to not talk about, as it reinforces the notion of people divided in terms of socioeconomic classes. I suppose a ‘better’ system would be where we all share the nasty jobs more equally; maybe some bankers and Guardian editors and journos could roll their sleeves up and work digging the roads, or emptying the bins, or perhaps just helping clean their own **** offices. Just an idea…