Why is it wrong to do what Elton John and David Furnish have done?

ou want to knwo why it is wrong to buy a baby from someone?
Can you buy an adult or just a child?

No, I want you to tell me why you think it’s wrong.

Can you buy an adult or just a child?

I’ll happily buy a child… but first I need to know if they’ll be good for heavy manual work? I’m thinking of putting a new patio in.

so you do want me to tell you why it is wrong to buy babies then 😯 It surprises that me that you need this explaining tbh and no doubt you will disagree. I dont think you should be able to buy human life however well intentioned it may be. Assuming you are ok with the trading of human life can i have an adult please? Much like TSY I need one but I think an adult will be much more skilled at the manual labour aspect of patio laying. A baby would be useless IMHO. As usual TSY has just not thought it through properly.

I’m not being argumentative, I just want to understand the reasoning behind some of the opinions and beliefs offered on this thread.

Of course I fully understand society’s view on this but I’m simply trying to dig out why you, or anyone else, subscribes to that view.

Your post only explained that you think it’s wrong, nothing was offered to support why you think it’s wrong.

And FWIW the child isn’t being bought for nefarious reasons; they just want to have a child of their own to love and bring up.

All that geetee1972 did there was recycle some red top tabloid paranoia rant as his own opinion and you clapped

Er no. I am quite capable of making up my own mind which comes from being married for some considerable time and having two children who are now adults. So actually I think I am perfectly qualified to comment.

Without wishing to come across as some boring old fogey, I do believe we all need to conform, in some way, and for me that meant within a family unit. This was how both myself and my ex husband had been bought up and we had both appreciated the stability of that family unit.

Naturally I accept this does not work for everyone. But what I do have a problem with is folk who think life is cheap and are more concerned with satisfying their own vanity. As has been mentioned, other ‘famous’ people such as Madonna have done similar.

A child is not a commodity and, believe me, they are bloomin’ hard work particularly in their teenage years. It’s a huge responsibility and I like to think I did a fairly good job.

Elton John’s lifestyle surely does not bode well in the sense that he tours around the world so what happens to the child’s education? Will the child be able to make lasting friendships? Will he have the balanced input that both a mother and a father can give? My son needed regular operations/hospital treatment from the age of 3 to 17 – I was always there for him. Could Elton if the situation arose?

Money does not solve everything. It takes more than that to be a good parent.

Finally, I will not apologise for my moral stance.

(now awaits some vitriol from somebody) 🙄

It’s a huge responsibility and I like to think I did a fairly good job

I’ll be the judge of that! Send your eldest born daughter (positive discrimination before anyone asks)…

c/o TSY
Yeti Towers

*wonders if she’ll be good to lay a patio*

At least I answered the question I notice you have failed , numerous times, to say whether it is ok to buy adults …for non nefarious reasons and purley to love obviously …lets say it is one of those wives from the Internet – so we even have an adult giving “consent” that OK? no moral issue with this?
Conversly a child,who cannot even offer consent,is ok because the adults who purchased it will Love it and bring it up-Clearly I am taking up a quite polarised version of this view but if you really cannot see the point I am making there is little point in digging further into what/why I think like this.

😆 TSY – she’s no good for you cos she smokes! Is it OK to ask how you’re doing on that front?

cinnamon_girl – I apologise if I offended you, and reading my post back it did sound a little bit rude. No harm meant but I stand by what I have written.

I simply couldn’t understand geetee1972’s dismal view on the youth of today and on society in general. I believe that we have a good society, far better than the likes of the Daily Express or Daily Mail would have us believe. I get really frustrated with that type of unfounded moral outrage because it is mainly a kneejerk reaction and almost always someone else’s opinion recycled to make, IMO, a weak point.

I don’t think that Zachary whatsisface will be in a worse situation than many other privileged children who might have the support of its parents and of the nanny staff, and I reckon that children are amazingly adaptable as long as they have love, shelter, education and emotional support. I hope that those things will all come to pass.

Junkyard – I didn’t offer the opinion that it is OK to buy an adult, or a child for that matter, so I didn’t feel it necessary to answer your question.

However, I think your point regarding consent of an unborn is important.

None of us consent to being born so the rule of consent must apply to all births whether money changes hands or not, so surely the real issue is what happens after birth. If the child is loved, nurtured, fed, sheltered does it matter on what ‘moral’ wave it rode into the world on?

I have no moral issues with internet brides as long as the marriage is one built on a foundation of love and support and that both people are under no duress to marry.

Naranjada – no, it’s OK thanks! I wasn’t offended cos I always wear a thick skin on here. 🙂

Fundamentally we may have a good society but there is a fairly large proportion that are devoid of any personal responsibility. The word ‘shame’ doesn’t figure these days so these people will continue with their selfish behaviour/procreating profusely etc etc. I may be completely wrong here but doesn’t geetee work in education?

Referring to certain children as ‘privileged’? Not in my book, the love and warmth of your immediate family is paramount.

To answer the title of this thread; surely a 12lb cock?

c_g – good, and you are so right about love and warmth, I understand about that bit fully.

Most people say that modern life is not as good as life in, say, the 50s. There’s less moral fibre nowadays, less accountability, less shame and I would probably agree with that from what I have read and seen, but what I don’t understand is what has caused the change?

Hora – incorrigible!

And I think you meant 12″, or is weight the new length?

C_G – Not too good this last week, kind of knew the festive period was going to be a problem 🙁

TSY – ah, that doesn’t sound good. Did you succumb, or partake in an alternative? OK, be positive here – you stopped in November was it? You could have delayed til January, for obvious reasons, but you didn’t so that seems to me that you are totally committed. Well done. 🙂

Now … did you enjoy it? Honestly? C’mon His Awesomeness – yes, you can do it. 😀

OK Naranjada – whoa, there with the fatalistic, existentialist, nihilism there bro! I think I got you a bit hot under the collar there. Which is good. We should debate things even here on a bike forum. It’s what makes us human.

Yes, everything that you cite as being a false construct is a false construct. It all a sham. None of it is real. On that basis anyone is free to do whatever they want to do. I can come over there, rape and murder your wife and children and then bind you into slavery.

That’s a pretty nasty and radical example but I choose to use that example to prove a point.

I’m a pretty well educated individual; I have an undergraduate in Anthropology and a post graduate, equivalent to an M. Phil so while I am not an ‘expert’ on specific issues, I believe I have earned the right to hold a reasonably well informed opinion.

To clarify, I don’t read the ‘red tops’ although I am aware that there is a moral outrage that generally pervades a number of them. Also, my view is one of balance; I think in general the world is a much better place and I was very clear about that in my post. But there are good things and there are bad things and all I did was highlight the bad things.

Whatever your political persuasion, you can’t argue with what is happening; the issues I raised are a matter of record. What is open for debate is how you choose to interpret the world around you and that’s where we differ.

I think that what Elton and Furnish did is pathetic and morally wrong because it reduces the creation of a human life to financial transaction. Human beings are not false constructs; our psyche is not a false construct; ego is not a false construct; our need for food and shelter, to feel safe and protected from harm are not false constructs.

These human needs are what give rise to the false constructs you cite because they fulfil those needs in us.

Most people are terribly insecure (one of the reasons for there being so much intolerance in the world) and that is a very real experience. It’s degrading to the human condition and the human experience to realise that you exist because someone ‘paid’ for you to exist.

Now here’s the good part. I’ll give you the counter argument to that: You exist because someone ‘paid’ for you to exist rather than enacted your existence because of love.

I’ve reflected a lot on this thread and in some ways I’ve changed my views.

I think ‘The Pilot’s’ view is the one that I would now subscribe to; that a child needs at least to be connected to both a mother and their father as far as is possible and that no one should allow such an exclusion.

geetee – firstly apologies as I have done you a disservice by thinking you were in education. 😳

That was a very thought-provoking reply from you. It’s probably a good job that we will never know the in’s and out’s of Elton John’s arrangement.

TSY is like the guy who tries to break up the pub fight…. <come on bud, it’s not worth it>……. lets go somewhere else…

so does itt matter with the bought “wife” if I treat her well afterwards just like with kids? You are refusing to answer as you want to apply a different rule to each situation- unless you are ok with people trafficing /slavery which I very much doubt you are. Take that one as rhetorical 😉
PS all life is change every generation thinks that the next one is worse than them because it is different.
For example attitudes towards homosexuality have varied from being widely practicised – Alexander had male lovers for example, to villified/illegal to tolerated like now. Forty years ago it was crime as this view changed to legal, to open, to civil partnership I am sure that many if previous generation thought it was worse. I am not sure it is worse just different. Change is inevitable except in the human psyche.

Thanks emma, on here I’m a lover not a fighter, however out there… 😯

C_G it was a substitute, or it was the thing that ciggies substituted in the first place. I’m totally comitted again. I’ll set the target of no smoking until next winter solstice, and by that point can’t imagine I’ll want to renege on the healthy lifestyle.

I wonder what this does to evolution?

Is this the start of a future where humans can only breed and reproduce with medical intervention?

All those children born via IVF – some will be carrying genes that mean they in turn will require IVF to reproduce. Now EJ is producing a child using a surrogate mother and presumably some kind of IVF process. Will this child have the same need? Others like it?

So we’ll end up with a humanity which cannot breed except with the help of doctors. What a gift for unscrupulous governments. Where does it end? Or am I just being paranoid?

TSY – you’re just full of bad habits aren’t you? 😉

OK, take control, you’re in charge. You were doing so well and the addiction of nicotine will diminish. Have your tastebuds appreciated this? How about your sense of smell?

You can do it!

All those children born via IVF – some will be carrying genes that mean they in turn will require IVF to reproduce

I very much doubt that infertitlity rates are any higher in IVF babies than in the general population – any data to support that?
yes you are paranoid it is a long way from this story to unscrupolous government controlled fecundity

Lol, thanks C_G. I have a rediculously addictive personality, who’d’ve thought?

I’ve just got to go back through the whole 1 hour, 2 hour, 2 days thing. It’s a habitual addiction more than an addiction to nicotine itself. Now I can occupy myself with making irreverent or irrelevant comments on here I’m sure I’ll be fine!

Interesting tangent you’re going off on there TSY & C_G ~ should smokers be allowed to adopt? 😯

{mods – Is it late enough for me to post a video of Elton John off of Bo Selecta? It was broadcast on Ch4 originally but some might find it offensive?}

TSY – you’ve done it once now do it again. Now … I read the article in the latest mag about Trans Provence – WOW 😯 You must go for it and, as special dispensation/reward for stopping smoking, you get to buy a new bike. 8)

And, no, we really don’t want any offensive stuff on here. 🙄

psling – hmmmm, difficult one. What do you think? And are you a smoker?

psling – hmmmm, difficult one. What do you think? And are you a smoker?

Why is it ‘a difficult one’?

if you smoke you cannot adopt a child under 5 years of age

Ex smoker. Interestingly enough I gave up when my 2nd daughter arrived nearly 24 years ago. Given how much of an issue smoking in the presence of children (and adults for that matter) is these days I wouldn’t be surprised if it is on the list of questions for potential adopters.

With regard to the whole adoption/surrogacy thing the rules/laws are created by groups of people that have to take into account their own judgements which will affect the lives of other people. We can all agree that children have to be protected from certain things eg potential paedofilia, history of violence, etc., but other things are based on moral or idealogical opinion, hence some of the opinions expressed on here. Some people will always disagree with some of the decisions made; as long as that disagreement is expressed in an inoffensive way then it is good to express opinion. IMO 😉

if you smoke you cannot adopt a child under 5 years of age

What? Seriously? For real??? 😯

Why is it ‘a difficult one’?

Possibly because being a smoker is potentially harmful to a child but you could be a suitable and loving ‘parent’ in all other ways?

if you smoke you cannot adopt a child under 5 years of age

I wonder on what criteria an arbitrary age of 5 years was chosen. I mean, if it is deemed to be unsuitable for a child of 4 years to be adopted by a smoker then does it become suitable for a child of 5 years? Interesting one? [even ‘difficult one’ 😉 ]

yes but it could be a guidline/best practice or law not sure which tbh

Is there not a demand v’s supply element?

With more people wanting to adopt a new born, than are available for adoption, they can place a more stringent criteria on applicants?

With more people wanting to adopt a new born, than are available for adoption, they can place a more stringent criteria on applicants?

Unless they are incredibly rich or famous in which case they can ‘buy’ a baby? 8)

*touches nose with one hand, points at psling with the other*

Possibly because being a smoker is potentially harmful to a child but you could be a suitable and loving ‘parent’ in all other ways?

So, you can drive them around in a car, which ‘potentially’ could end up in a fatal accident, you can drink, which could ‘potentially’ lead to mistakes/errors of judgement, etc etc etc, but you can’t have a crafty puff? What if you don’t smoke inside when kids are there? My parents smoked in the house when I was a nipper, and I grew up perfectly healthy. Bloody Nanny State deciding ‘What’s Best’ for people all the bloody time.

Ridiculous.

I find it fascinating how some folk seem to think their values somehow trump others, without really having any decent or fully valid reasons why.

Anyway Twundred but I’m to upset now to enjoy it. 😥