Scotland Indyref 2

Remeber the main real driver for another referendum is that the promises we were given in 2014 have all been broken

As you can see, among the lies that continue is the idea that the UK did not honour its promised made (in the false panic) pre-vote. But as we know, the detail was left to the Smith Commission and the SNP signed off on that agreement with the other parties. As per, they later muddied the waters, claiming that what was agreed was not enough. So guess what - the Uk didnt deliver becomes a false narrative. Usual SNP smoke and mirrors stuff which tj and others willing swallow.

In contrast:

Analysts from the Scottish Parliament Information Centre concluded that the fiscal changes set out in the Smith Commission would mean [b]Holyrood was one of the most economically powerful devolved parliaments in the world, compared to federal systems like Germany and Switzerland [/b]

Cake and eat it......

And people want to throw this away in favour of poorly thought-through/not-thought through fluff and nonsense. Like Brexshit it would be the most vulnerable members of Scottish society that would lose out.

Insanity

Aracer - she could and would IMO. either that or she would have to stand down.

If the polls start to show a decent majority for yes then she has to call a referendum - and it has to be done soon. Her position within the party would be unsustainable if she didn't - and to bow to westminster pressure? Unthinkable

So she'd call a second referendum, the main justification for which is Brexit, the result of which is that she's forced to commit to something which would result in Scotland not only being outside the EU, but not even recognised by it, so no trade deals etc? Because the EU certainly does deal in realpolitik - don't believe that all the positive noises being made at the moment will mean anything when it has to deal with part of a member state which declares UDI (I don't suppose the distinction of it being a former member state will matter that much to Spain). The EU will do what is best both for its members and the project as it is demonstrating at the moment, even if that means some pain in order to encourage other members not to do similar things. I doubt the German car makers will even exert too much pressure for a market of 6 million people - as ludicrous as the claims made by Brexiteers about them needing us more than we need them are, that goes 10 times for IS.

Do you really think Nicola that stupid? She's the canniest operator around and certainly won't be forced into that. A lot of this is actually about establishing a negotiating position.

I don't suppose the distinction of it being a former member state will matter that much to Spain

[video]

aracer - if she didn't go for a referendum and there was a good chance of winning it then she would be out on her ear. You underestimate the pressure from the fundamentalists in the party.

Its clear that Spains objections would be much less because leaving the UK to remain in ( not join) the EU sets no precedent for catalonia. Plenty of statements to this effect from influential spanish politicians.

I think you also underestimate the joy many European folk would have in sticking up two fingers to the rUK

dragon - Member
Anyone ever feel this thread is like this:

More this...

[img] [/img]

CFH - na - more this [video]

So she'll avoid the situation some way or another, because it's a no win situation for her. It's not like the polls are anywhere close to forcing her that way at the moment, and they won't move in that direction without her input...

The noises Spain is making (such as they are) are on the basis of a friendly split, not a UDI - the dangerous precedent would be set following a UDI whatever the relative position within the EU, attitudes would change somewhat.

[quote=tjagain ]I think you also underestimate the joy many European folk would have in sticking up two fingers to the rUK

Now you really are sounding like a Brexiteer. I'm not sure the average European is all that bothered about sticking their fingers up at us, and any impression coming that way is mainly on the basis of realpolitik dictating that the split cannot be favourable to the country leaving. Not that I'm sure most of those who might want to stick their fingers up have even heard of Scotland 😈

Everyone hates the English so why not?

aracer - I have read the quotes. Remember I am a political geek and follow all this stuff from multiple sources

Good stuff! THM has reverted to type.

Everybody hates the English

Maybe coming up here and calling people "sweaties" has given you a false impression of Scottish hostility in the first instance? I mean, you frequently cite it( hostility)as a main reason for the independence movement. 45% of the population ( more now) voting yes because they hate the English! Or is it maybe 25% and 20% swallowing YS lies?

I think you also underestimate the joy many European folk would have in sticking up two fingers to the rUK

Nobody really gives a shit about sticking anything to the UK. Most people are surprised by the brexit vote and don't want to give the UK concessions (they chose to leave, why should we be disadvantaged?) and more are concerned about what happens to friends/family in the UK or the British people they know living in their countries. But sticking it to the UK, not really a main topic over here in Euroland.

Bliimey duckie, will you ever get over the sweaty flower song - you got your prize, so move on. Your getting as bad as the chief troll.

But to your point, It would be easier if valid, logical and factually supported arguments were presented instead of the on-going "deluded" (TY Alex Bell) or "mistaken" (TY Stilglitz)) nonsense that keeps being peddled by yS supporters. Otherwise one is left with the obvious conclusion regarding one of the main motives here - its as naked as the Brexit xenophobia - it doesn't matter if the Emperors New Clothes are branded taking control, even little kids, well especially little kids, can see through them.

In the last few pages we have had the recycling of old BS such as UDI, it's not our debt, it's not our deficit, we can jus walk away etc. Total BS used to disguise the real motive - or simple people really are being that irgnorant/gullible - you decide. But even AS didn't take his lies that far.

For the record, everyone hates the english was obviously tongue in cheek to reflect the crassness of the arguments

The deficit is actually a good example of how numbers can be used to hide the situation.

For example, there's a proposal that the government could pay billions of pounds to let the City keep its passporting system with Europe after Brexit. That's billions from UK taxpayers - hundreds of millions from Scotland.

And that then shows up on the deficit side of Scotland's account under GERS.

Scotland pays for the City of London to get a better deal than we get, and it looks bad on our balance sheet because of it.

Scotland pays for the City of London to get a better deal than we get

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it.

Yes Ben and that proposal (as flawed as it is admittedly, but that's another debate) has no positive benefit for Scottish banks or the Scots who work in London? And just imagine what would happen to level of government spending in Scotland if they tax revenues from the City (and it's wider effect) were lost.

Mol sums it up perfectly.

I am surprised that you can spout such bollocks about deep fried food, Mel Gibson etc,not to mention your ban for constant reference to "Sweaties" (Wasn't me btw, but well deserved imo.)..and then push allegations about xenophobia.

Obviously not 😯

This whole "aww why don't we get as much money as London" is nonsense.

I might spend £400 on getting the cambelt done on my car, but only say £100 on rear shocks. Is this fair? Why does the engine get more spent on it than the suspension? Surely the back half of the car should get the same as the front half? So I should get super duper shocks for £250 and get a cheap mechanic to fit a cheap cambelt and leave the old pulleys on - might get that done for £250. Perfectly fair solution isn't it?

Anyway - side track, but that's the kind of flawed thinking we get on these kinds of debates and it annoys the crap out of me.

Anyway - side track, but that's the kind of flawed thinking we get on these kinds of debates and it annoys the crap out of me.

True but that is what makes them equally amusing, appalling and compelling 😉

Molgips

Lots of examples on this. For example crossrail. Paid for with UK money ie scotland pays for part of it but the A9 dualling is paid for only by scotland ie only paid for from Scotlands budget. Many many examples of this.

I think that the charge that Westminster is just code for the English is wrong.

I think that a lot of English people are very frustrated with the democratic deficit in Westminster as well. It led us to the situation we're in now where a junta of lunatics is hell bent on driving us off a cliff and there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

Even if the courts manage to force the issue to go to parliament there's no guarantee that they won't vote for a hard Brexit anyway given the way the first past the post system gives a dis-proportionally large say to a government that a minority of the population voted for.

I used to be in favour of first past the post because it made MPs accountable to their constituents rather than their party. If that ever was the case then it's certainly not now. The vast majority of folk can't even name their MP and seem to think they're voting for the PM.

The role of the PM has become more and more presidential to the extent that people might as well be voting directly for the PM.

So the democratic deficit is affecting the whole country and yet there is absolutely no sign that it's going to change. This is why you get the argument, "But it's the same for us, most people aren't getting the government they voted for." and these people are absolutely right.

The thing is the Scots do have a way out of this not fit for purpose shit-storm of a political system by voting for independence. For the English and Welsh people who are frustrated I'm sorry, I feel for you, but don't begrudge us the fact we've got a way out and you don't.

Spot on Bruce

I am a Briton. I voted yes with a very heavy heart but I did so because I want a progressive government accountable to the electorate. I was very sad at the prospect of leaving my friends in the north of england in the lurch

How do the folk in the Shetlands and Orkneys (and elsewhere) feel about democratic deficit? Or does that simply get swept under the carpet? The same arguments get repeated within Scotland as they do here.

As you move from solo existence to living in communities of greater size and complexity, you gain some benefits but lose some independence. You become interdependent and better for it. But there are compromises - but to focus only on the costs (see the example two posts above or the BS posted by Brexiteers and a them and us attitude simple shows a lack of understanding of existence beyond a very selfish bubble - how odd that this is the mirror image of the accusation made towards Westminster!! Well not odd at all.

As the two reports I have linked suggest, Scotland has benefitted greatly from an increase in devolved power bring an element of federal existence already, but there is never enough cake it there?

How about using those powers first and dealing with the weaker economic growth, challenges in Scotlands NHS and the wider educational inequalities first. Blaming others only goes so far, even "Presidential" heads of devolved governments have to roll their sleeves up and take responsibility and accountability.

[quote=tjagain ]
I was very sad at the prospect of leaving my friends in the north of england in the lurch

So was I until I saw how they voted in the EU referendum...

Most of the economic policy affecting Scotland is still reserved to Westminster thm.

I think I may have said this already on the thread but there are some issues going on that many folk forget
1) 30% of SNP voters voted for out of the EU
2) significant % ( around 20% I think) of SNP voters voted NO in the last independence referendum ( perhaps because of the EU position?)

Sturgeon has to reconcile these conundrums and find some answers to them to get a yes vote. I do not know what the answers are.

The last vote:

32 local authorities in Scotland

Only 4 voted yes (one only just)

The strongest support was Dundee with 57.3% of the vote (below the level where most of us believe such debates should be decided)

28 voted no

10 of the 28 were above 60% No

15 had stronger voting patterns than Dundee's yes

Democratic deficits/concentrated political power - interesting questions indeed....

Note the strength of the Shetland and Orkney vote and then consider their argument that others might be taking them out of a union that they voted even more strongly for than Scots voting for the EU.

Most of the economic policy affecting Scotland is still reserved to Westminster thm.

Be that as it may, your guys are now arguing for transferring even greater powers to Frankfurt, sorry Brussels. I wish you would make you mind up what you want - otherwise it look horribly like anti-.......... 😉

@ On the contrary Thm it looks like your asking us to address economic problems knowing full well that Westminster hasn't given us the tools

Not true and I have proved this with links to independent sources. You have plenty of tools but only choose to use some of the well. But you know the old saying about bad workmen...

"More cake please...."

The Holyrood government has always had control over much of public spending in Scotland. From next spring, it will have control over taxes, including most of income tax, which raises 40 per cent of the revenues required to cover devolved spending. From 2019, half of the VAT raised there will also be assigned. Half of Scottish spending will then be paid for by taxes devolved or assigned to Scotland. That is a remarkable change. Scotland will have far more control than now over its tax affairs and over the size of its budget....

...Analysts from the Scottish Parliament Information Centre concluded that the fiscal changes set out in the Smith Commission would mean Holyrood was one of the most economically powerful devolved parliaments in the world, compared to federal systems like Germany and Switzerland

Old Mother Hubbard went to her cupboard

Again, if the last vote was so strong, it should be able to hold up to another. (Which it will in the short term) On that very principle, I don't really understand resistance to offering scotland another referendum, immediately.

You'd think calling the bluff and saying, ok, have a referedum, but we're not going through 2 years again. 6 months, there you go crack on with it.

Imagine "imposing" a referendum on Nicola now!!! The reaction would be priceless Joe!

As amusing as the bluff would be, I think we have had enough of ill-informed debate for quite some time.

I have not been a great fan of May historically but I do admire the fact that she is getting on with making best of a bad lot. If only Nicola would do the same and stop the smoke screening. Scotland deserves better.

On that very principle, I don't really understand resistance to offering scotland another referendum, immediately

Ah, principles...

On the [b]principle[/b] that we were all told that the last vote was to be a once in a generation, parhaps once in a lifetime, vote, by both former and current SNP leaders, I don't really understand resistance to refusing Scotland another referendum anytime within the next twenty five years.

ninfan, shoosh. You're like a spambot with the once in a generation stuff. Plus that attitude does nothing but give credence to the overload patter.

btw longer you leave it, more chance it has of winning.

Perhaps ninfan forgot that it (like many things) was a lie?

teamhurtmore - Member
Perhaps ninfan forgot that it (like many things) was a lie?

Think a lie is a bit strong. An emotional reaction in the aftermath of a fairly crushing defeat. To hold someone to something they said at that point, forever, is utterly ridiculous.

When did the DO make the claim?

More or less the next day was it not? anyhow, regardless, i'm not getting into it, it's irrelevant. Point stands, you give it again now, and win it, or you give it in 15 year time and you will lose it.

don't really understand resistance to offering scotland another referendum, immediately.

We gave you a legally binding once in a lifetime referendum (AS's own words) with 2 years to make your case. This is not golf, there are no Mulligans.

Scotland has more than enough tools to singificantly impact Economic policy, you put up stamp
duty and you decided against a 50% tax rate as it would be counterproductive.

jambalaya - Member

We gave you

That's a good look. keep it up... 😕

you give it again now, and win it, or you give it in 15 year time and you will lose it.

We don't give it now - Scotland remains in UK
We don't give it in 15 years - Scotland remains in the UK
etc

UK politicians won't say this but I will. There will [b]never[/b] be another Referendum

[quote=jambalaya ]
UK politicians won't say this but I will. There will never be another Referendum

good thing you're an absolute ****ing nobody on an internet forum with zero influence on anything

Yup its a good look - we the Government of the whole of the UK. As you know I am not interested in political correctness. Its time for the SNP to shut up and get on with using the develoved powers they where given. Personally I think Cameron bottled it by offering more powers, they weren't necessary to win. No other PM will have the bravery of Cameron to offer another vote

More or less the next day was it not?

No it wasn't, but don't worry Joe these debates would die immediate if you guys stuck to the truth 😉

anyhow, regardless, i'm not getting into it, it's irrelevant.

Which bit the result or the lie??

Boarding lets look at my track record here, 4.5 years and on the winning side if every major political discussion to date

In the coming years we can check back on whether Scotland becomes independent. I'm
going for never

I think I smell shite. Yes I definitely smell shite.

Boarding lets look at my track record here, 4.5 years and on the winning side if every major political discussion to date

'kin ell, I never realised that you were Alex Salmond in disguise Jambas!?!

Km - soap, water and deodorant may help

Once in a lifetime would be fine if EVERY promise made during the campaign had been kept and if there was no significant change in circumstances like the EU referendum

We were told "vote no to stay in the EU" "Vote no and get meaningful extra powers in holyrood amounting to home rule" etc etc.

Jamba "devolved powers they were given" how patronising is that.

[quote=jambalaya ]Boarding lets look at my track record here, 4.5 years and on the winning side if every major political discussion to date

the really sad bit is you actually think you're on the "winning" side