Complete this phrase in 10 words or less

If the scottish people don’t want another referedum,

they could have voted no in the last one?

Its easy to remember!

This is Scotch:

This is Scottish:

seosamh77 – Member
that’s you trying to dictate to the scottish people.

If the scottish people don’t want another referedum, they’ll tell the SNP to piss off when they put it in their manifesto at the scottish elections.

Or they’ll be aware that manifestos contain more than one policy idea and make a decision to vote for a particular party by weighing up their opinion of these different policy ideas and vote for the one which most closely meets their needs? And so they might, shock horror, vote for the SNP but not support independence…

epicyclo – Member
But these days it is on a par with ‘****’ and as Northwind says, it’s a useful diagnostic.

Scotland needs a referendum on how often it wants to have a referendum.

and a referendum on having a referendum on how often it wants to have a referendum every five years

pjt201 – Member
seosamh77 – Member
that’s you trying to dictate to the scottish people.
If the scottish people don’t want another referedum, they’ll tell the SNP to piss off when they put it in their manifesto at the scottish elections.

Or they’ll be aware that manifestos contain more than one policy idea and make a decision to vote for a particular party by weighing up their opinion of these different policy ideas and vote for the one which most closely meets their needs? And so they might, shock horror, vote for the SNP but not support independence…you are aware that we got the last referendum because it was in the SNP manifesto(not the only policy) and even the blinking tories thought it right that there should be a referendum as the mandate from the scottish people had been given.

Like I say, are you just being obtuse?

pjt201 – Member

My gripe is that there is a section of Scottish society who wanted the referendum (those who wanted independence) and now can’t accept the result of that referendum.

There’s only a very small group that doesn’t accept the result of the referendum, the conspiracy theorists etc. Working meaningfully towards the next referendum pretty much requires that you accept the result of the last after all.

However there seems to be an enormous group that doesn’t understand that one referendum doesn’t settle the matter for all time, or that it’s not up to just a couple of people to decide. And weirdly the people making most noise about the referendum seem to be those against it. Kesia Dugdale’s absolutely obsessed with it.

@ b n d

I do understand that people question the urgency to discuss or propose a second IndyRef but if anyone thinks the Political landscape has not been significantly altered in light of the “after effects” of the Ref in ’14 then they are a bit of a mug really. It is not about who won but far more about whether the promised assurances for voting No have been upheld.

As to the use of the term “scotch” to refer to people and not a drink it fits with the general attitude prevalent in the UK and predominantly in the English vernacular to coin reductionist nicknames for foreigners – Frogs, Krauts, Yanks etc If you use it at all I put a wee mental note on your card.

And @ninfan – you are wrong on both accounts – Beckhams blue bottled stuff is Donkey piss in a fancy flask and the other picture is of my dad and he’s Italian. 😆

and even the blinking tories thought it right that there should be a referendum as the mandate from the scottish people had been given.

And that the outcome of that referendum would settle the matter for a generation, possibly even a lifetime.

“and even the blinking tories thought it right that there should be a referendum as the mandate from the scottish people had been given.
And that the outcome of that referendum would settle the matter for a generation, possibly even a lifetime” They might have thought that but it looks like they might have been wrong.Who knows?

This is Scottish:

..and this is English

Everyone should support Catalonian self-determination

Why?

Catalonian self-determination doesn’t necessarily mean independence. They might very well self-determine to stick with where things are, thanks very much.

..and this is English

I think you missed the subtlety in my post… (clue, look at what he’s looking at!) 🙄

the general attitude prevalent in the UK and predominantly in the English vernacular to coin reductionist nicknames for foreigners – Frogs, Krauts, Yanks etc

Oh look! It’s the “Scots are less bigoted than the English” canard!

dragon – Member
the weegies

Dragon – you disgust me. Your use of the “W” word is basically like using the C, F, M, T and Q words simultaneously. What you have done is on a par with enslaving a country, clapping them in irons, salting their earth, slaughtering their first born, burning their books and planting Japanese knotweed.

EDIT – this thread is pish..am oot!

So the Scottish vernacular for the Irish, Welsh, or heaven forfend the English is…?

Laird

Might be one last chance to drag it back to something about the Catalan thing…

kb, I posted this on P.2. Your thoughts?

kb>> Now, we have an example of a relatively similar bunch of people (industrialised, European, democratic, homogenous-ish) voting in favour of being a small independent EU state.

Have they?

As far as I can see, a right-wing pro-separatist alliance can join with a far left separatist party to have a majority in the Catalan parliament – this is akin to saying that the popular vote for SNP meant that Scotland had voted in favour of independence – which wasn’t the case when the referendum happened. (I have no idea what the parties’ other policies are. Clearly in Scottish elections, some pro-union voters must have voted for the SNP.)

From the BBC report:

The pro-independence parties said ahead of the vote that they considered it a de facto referendum on independence from Spain.

I suppose it’s easy to say this, but it’s only words for now. (As well as the separatists only securing 47.8% of total votes cast…so if that’s a de-facto referendum, it’s not looking good for them.)

Far from clear cut so far, but it’ll be interesting to see how it pans out in the coming months.[/quote]

EDIT – this thread forum is pish..am oot!

Northwind – Member
Working meaningfully towards the next referendum pretty much requires that you accept the result of the last after all.

If one accepts the result of the last referendum why would one be working towards the next referendum? At some point, both sides have to agree that there is no mandate to continue holding referenda, how do we reach that point given that no result will be 100%? Apparently a 5.3% majority isn’t enough so what will be?

konabunny – Member

Oh look! It’s the “Scots are less bigoted than the English” canard!

We direct all our bigotry at our age old enemies, the Scots, so we don’t have enough left for foreigners.

but how often should you be able to hold referenda on the matter?

until the SNP get the outcome that they want

I was struck by Nicola Sturgeons speech on the anniversary of the referendum

If you continue to ignore Scotland’s voice, if you continue to disrespect the choice that people across this country made in May, more and more people will conclude that Westminster simply can’t deliver for Scotland

What about respecting the choice that people across this country made in September when we rejected independence? The SNP need to focus on running a Government.

pjt201 – Member

If one accepts the result of the last referendum why would one be working towards the next referendum?

Because of the linear nature of time, mostly. You accept what has happened in the past, and you work towards what you want to happen in the future.

If it worked otherwise, the Earl of Godolphin would have accepted the result of the general election, and the Whigs would still be in power.

Northwind – Member

Because of the linear nature of time, mostly. You accept what has happened in the past, and you work towards what you want to happen in the future.

Which is fine if you don’t misrepresent people or your intentions. The current difficulty I have with the Scottish situation is that Sturgeon talks as though she is the voice of the entire population, which she categorically isn’t. I have the same issue with Cameron before you point this out – however he didn’t/won’t hold a referendum on whether to get more involved in Syria so his position is a little more defensible as opposed to being on the losing side of a very recent (in political terms) referendum and then carrying on like that referendum didn’t happen.

If Sturgeon waited a reasonable period of time (I’m not going to suggest what that period is, however it would need to be long enough for the current referendum to be out of the national conciousness) before pressing for another go that would be fine, however just over a year isn’t really long enough.

What about respecting the choice that people across this country made in September when we rejected independence? The SNP need to focus on running a Government.

TBF I think Sturgeon’s comment if said in the context of SNP policies with regards to austerity and Trident, for example, is valid.

She is simply pointing out that implementing policies which have been overwhelming rejected by Scots will result in more and more people concluding that Westminster simply can’t deliver for Scotland.

A fair and probably true point imo.

Of course the Tories could argue that they have a mandate for their policies, the problem is that the SNP has a considerably larger mandate for their policies in Scotland.

The SNP would fall short of their responsibilities to the Scottish electorate if they embraced policies which they were elected to oppose.

pjt201 – Member

as opposed to being on the losing side of a very recent (in political terms) referendum and then carrying on like that referendum didn’t happen.

TBF, I don’t know how you can claim this is the case, it just doesn’t make any sense.

ninfan – Member
and even the blinking tories thought it right that there should be a referendum as the mandate from the scottish people had been given.
And that the outcome of that referendum would settle the matter for a generation, possibly even a lifetime.

POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
gordimhor – Member
“and even the blinking tories thought it right that there should be a referendum as the mandate from the scottish people had been given.
And that the outcome of that referendum would settle the matter for a generation, possibly even a lifetime” They might have thought that but it looks like they might have been wrong.Who knows?

I asked you before, do soundbytes superceed a democratic mandate?

do soundbytes superceed a democratic mandate?

If they do, then I want Gordie Brown’s “near home rule” implemented ASAP.

Northwind – Member
TBF, I don’t know how you can claim this is the case, it just doesn’t make any sense.

As in practically demanding a more or less immediate further referendum on the subject. Almost every week there’s another story in the press about Sturgeon saying if x happens then there’ll have to be another referendum.

ernie_lynch – Member
She is simply pointing out that implementing policies which have been overwhelming rejected by Scots will result in more and more people concluding that Westminster simply can’t deliver for Scotland.

Define overwhelmingly for me please? The SNP don’t have a majority in Holyrood…

Isn’t she just expressing the view of the people who voted for her?

bencooper – Member
Isn’t she just expressing the view of the people who voted for her?

She can’t be as only 44% voted for independence and 50% voted SNP at the last general election.

Anyway, my point is politically it seems bonkers just to keep banging on and on about wanting another referendum when the last one isn’t even cold yet.

pjt201 – Member

As in practically demanding a more or less immediate further referendum on the subject. Almost every week there’s another story in the press about Sturgeon saying if x happens then there’ll have to be another referendum.

They’ve laid out a couple of situations which would change the UK landscape enough to make another referendum likely. That’s about a million miles away from “practically demanding a more or less immediate further referendum”.

pjt201 – Member

Define overwhelmingly for me please? The SNP don’t have a majority in Holyrood…

Apparently winning 10% is overwhelming, if it’s a referendum, so how about we use that 😆 Or 36.9%, for anyone else but the SNP in a general election.

Point of order though, the SNP hold “only” 50% of votes but they’re not the only party holding some of these positions. For independence and anti-Trident, the Greens, for anti-austerity they just need the 0.1% that voted for TUSC tip it into a majority platform.

pjt201 – Member

Define overwhelmingly for me please? The SNP don’t have a majority in Holyrood…still struggling with concept of parliamentary democracy I see. 😆

Define overwhelmingly for me please?

50% of the vote.

You might not be overwhelmed by it but I was. You would have to go back a long way in political history to find the last time that a party received 50% of the vote in Scotland or the UK. The present Tory government received 36% of the vote in the UK (18% in Scotland).

pjt201 – Member
…The current difficulty I have with the Scottish situation is that Sturgeon talks as though she is the voice of the entire population, which she categorically isn’t…

She is the First Minister, so she is the voice.

And I think you’ll find if you look closer that she’s trying to hold back the push for another referendum (in the short term).

There is a sort of equilibrium that is built into a democracy in this respect: if the SNP keeps banging on about referenda when they lose them and no-one wants them then people will simply stop voting for them. It’s a self-solving problem.

Might be one last chance to drag it back to something about the Catalan thing…
kb, I posted this on P.2. Your thoughts?

I have to admit I thought the election was in fact a referendum on Catalonian independence, not just a prelude to it. In this case, I wonder whether the question would be better phrased the other way around: if the Catalonian independence movement succeeds where the Scottish one failed, what does that tell us? Was the Scottish campaign fought the wrong way? Did the conditions change? Or are the movements simply too didferent to make comparisons worthwhile? I don’t think it’s the latter.

konabunny – Member
There is a sort of equilibrium that is built into a democracy in this respect: if the SNP keeps banging on about referenda when they lose them and no-one wants them then people will simply stop voting for them. It’s a self-solving problem.

aye I agree with that.

if the Catalonian independence movement succeeds where the Scottish one failed, what does that tell us?

That Catalonia and Scotland are 2 different countries with different politics, economies, and histories?