I am as thick as mince

Tru dat.

And, you’re a teacher as well. Jeezus.

😆

😉 etc.

Thats the first time you’ve ever agreed with me dd, I’m touched.

starkey is a particularly loathsome individual…………….

The core of history is narrative and biography. And the way history has been presented in the curriculum for the last 25 years is very different. The importance of knowledge has been downgraded. Instead the argument has been that it’s all about skills. Supposedly, what you are trying to do with children is inculcate them with the analytical skills of the historian. Now this seems to me to be the most goddamn awful way to approach any subject, and also the most dangerous

actually i’ve been led to believe that the core of history is the analysis of sources and debate regarding the historiography. obviously this forms personal opinions of history which is an obviously dangerous outcome to this odious little man who quite obviously thinks that historical narrative is all that young people need. If that’s not downgrading knowledge then I don’t know what is, particularly if that narrative comes from anyone as narrow minded as him.

Can anyone be a racist and be considered an intellectual? To me racism is mainly about ignorance with a dash of fear.

triumph of inherited privilege over merit,

It sounds negative, but it shouldn’t be. We just need to find ourselves again and discover what we can give to the world.

The monarchy sits in this as a link to our past glories, a reluctance to let go of it, because we know who we were, but we don’t know who we will be. There is no other logic to keeping something to which monarchists claim “does not interfere” with the running of the country, other than for sentimental reasons.

+ a million

I get the sense that the monarchists for some reason think that being a Republican means you are not patriotic or want your country to succeed. On the contrary as the above quotes suggest we want this country to be more meritocratic and rediscover the invention, entrepreneurial flair, audacity, confidence and enterprise that changed the world. The Royal Family is part of the inertia that prevents us moving forward as a country. Its the lynch pin of inherited privilege and the class system and there is no good reason for its continued existence

with that I am going back into ignore mode for you.

please do this I think a number of us would be very grateful
FWIW you say that in each thread you and he are in and never actually do it.

Can anyone be a racist and be considered an intellectual?

of course they can
I disagree with the archbishop of canterbury and think he has said some foolish things and reached the wrong conclusion on god. however i cannot say he is not an intellectual.
You can be very clever and very wrong – the degree PhD, etc you cannot deny he is an intellectual. it does not make him correct.Not being racist does not make you an intellectual either.

THM a figure of national unity no doubt did help but I am not sure it needed to be monarch and in top trumps mode I play this card

Hand over your card 😉
I was going to be controversial and go for Ghandi but thought better of it…imagine if religion got dragged into this.

On the contrary as the above quotes suggest we want this country to be more meritocratic and rediscover the invention, entrepreneurial flair, audacity, confidence and enterprise that changed the world. The Royal Family is part of the inertia that prevents us moving forward as a country. Its the lynch pin of inherited privilege and the class system and there is no good reason for its continued existence

That’s funny, there was me thinking that the most vibrant, inventive and forward-striving period in our recent history was when Queen Victoria was on the throne, we had engineers like Brunel and a global Empire and Commonwealth run by a few hundred people in London. So why, exactly, is the Monarchy now an impediment when it wasn’t then?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Oh, and I spent the weekend with some Scots who’s attitude to Her Maj was very much like some on here, so TJ is in the very best possible place in the world he could be.
And I’m happy to man the Border patrol to make sure he stays there, too… 😈

Because that was then and this is now. We need to remove the safety blanket of tradition and past glories, increase social mobility and meritocratic progression. Dumping the Saxe Coburgs or at the very least not fawning over them is obviously not the whole solution but its a start. You can continue to tug the forelock as a loyal subject if you want I prefer to have my admiration and respect earned and not assumed as a birthright.

monarch and in top trumps mode I play this card

Hang on – your top trump against monarchy is a convicted terrorist?

You might as well have played Gerry Adams 🙄

**** me zulu you are a classy idiot arent you.

Hang on – your top trump against monarchy is a convicted terrorist?

😀 You always deliver Z-11.

Well done fella…..you never let the side down !

uponthedowns, I don’t tug a forelock to anyone, and I give my respect to those who do deserve it, which is why I fully respect the Queen and how she’s given her life to being the best representative for this country, but have zero respect for Princess Tony, his grinning Gargoyle of a wife, Gordon Broon, Prince Andrew, Peter ******* Mandelson, and all the politicians we have who seem to think that a position in government comes with a cast-iron sense of entitlement just as offensive as some on here find the so-called ‘Toffs’, seeing as how the allegedly Left-leaning ones have just as posh backgrounds, and educations, as the right-of-centre.

😈

his grinning Gargoyle of a wife

Powerful stuff. I feel I’m shifting my position based on that description of a former PM’s wife.

The reference to “Gordon Broon” also challenged my previously held opinions.

Although “Peter ******* Mandelson” felt weak, any chance of upping the insult ? I feel it wouldn’t take much more to be won over completely, if you managed to do that.

“Princess Tony” also lacked an edge to it btw.

so zero you like the queen and hate anyone Labour for being posh

Nice polemic well thought through. However some random caps, more swearing and some garbled stuff in the middle would really have helped your score
Its a 2/10 from me.

My view that the concept of monarchy has no place in our country in 2012 is my own.

I don’t require any sort of celebrity endorsement of this view.

JY – so Madiba, what an excellent choice for so many reasons. Indeed a multi-top trump card. How ironic that Madiba himself plays the role sometimes played by the monarchy. In addition to the figure of national unity he is the figure who protects the interests of the minority against all the odds and the legacy of his detention.

Interesting also that Jonathan Wolff, the Prof or Philosophy at UCL agues in “An introduction to Political Philosophy”, that “Black South Africans were enfranchised for the first time…the mere fact that they now had the vote was a way of recording that black South Africans were at last treated as worthy of respect….Having a vote, then, seems to be important irrespective of what people do with it.”

And what did happen with it – by 2011 what had become of the valued treasure of democracy? Was it the rule of the people or the rule of the mob? Jacob Zuma announced that, “When you vote for the ANC (African National Congress), you are choosing to go to heaven. When you don’t vote for the ANC, you should know that you are choosing that man who carries a fork…who cooks people.” I wonder how the atheists feel about that – the tyranny of the ANC/Christians over the rest of the population. *

The perfect example of why democracy was for most of human history barring the Ancient Greece and recent modern society was a universally detested political system (Wolff page 63). The first great (potential) flaw of democracy – the tyranny of the majority over the minority. Small wonder then that by 2011, only 10% of South Africans thought that voters should hold MPs to account, whereas as many as four out of ten believed that presidents should be able to “decide everything”. So how bizarre is that?

Hence we come back to the first important role of the constitutional monarch – the person with a social contract to protect against the tyranny of the majority and to respect the rights of the minority. Madiba arguably plays that role in SA as does ERII in the UK, a fact recognised by PMs of all parties who recognise this important role. Wasn’t it Cherie Blair who was shocked at the transformation of Tony Blair when he realised how she played this role. It is this that lies at the heart of Starkey’s point (I think) that the monarchy plays a very valuable role in restricting political extremes and protecting the interest of the minority.

*I was going to be controversial and go for Ghandi but thought better of it…imagine if religion got dragged into this.

Sorry couldn’t be avoided ! 😉

Teamhurtmore any chance you could write about something relating to Britain? SA politics is about as far removed a democracy from Britain as its possible to get. I fail to see how any point you can make can be relevant.

A-A, of course but if JY lays down his top trump and asks for my card it would be rude not to respond!

You obviously missed the bit about the monarchy playing a balancing role that protects against political extremes and the tyranny of the majority a fact that PMs seem to recognise without political favour. Sorry if that message was so hidden!?! 😕

But the fact that democracy is a relatively modern concept in itself and that until recently was a detested rather than a lauded system of government is easy to forget.

That’s funny, there was me thinking that the most vibrant, inventive and forward-striving period in our recent history was when Queen Victoria was on the throne, we had engineers like Brunel and a global Empire and Commonwealth run by a few hundred people in London. So why, exactly, is the Monarchy now an impediment when it wasn’t then? Enquiring minds want to know.

Comes as no surprise that someone who supports the Monarchy can only link to past achievements and not base an argument on their relevance today, while at the same time promoting some sort of romanticism for the days of Empire.

Have you been away all weekend El-bent?

fatboyslo – Member
I can understand them being miserable ….

After all wouldn’t you be when you realised you just picked Mitt Romney as your candidate
Excellent. Only had to wade through a mere 4 pages for this.

but have zero respect for Princess Tony, his grinning Gargoyle of a wife, Gordon Broon, Prince Andrew, Peter ******* Mandelson, and all the politicians we have who seem to think that a position in government comes with a cast-iron sense of entitlement just as offensive as some on here find the so-called ‘Toffs’, seeing as how the allegedly Left-leaning ones have just as posh backgrounds, and educations, as the right-of-centre.

Whoosh. Where did that come from?

You don’t have to be a lefty to be a Republican. My political leanings are centre right. You can have as much or as little respect for politicians of any persuasion as you like but they are only in power because someone voted for them and not because they were born into the position.

You obviously missed the bit about the monarchy playing a balancing role that protects against political extremes and the tyranny of the majority a fact that PMs seem to recognise without political favour. Sorry if that message was so hidden!?! 

so to miss quote that film what has the queen done for us in terms of preventing the tryany f the majority?

You obviously missed the bit about the monarchy playing a balancing role that protects against political extremes

Really? when?

Well Gentleman perhaps your are feigning ignorance of modern British history and politics for effect. Perhaps just to continue an argument?

Either way I hope that it is just feigning….. 😕

Perhaps to end the argument you could provide an example where the queen has ‘played a balancing role that protects against political extremes’?

I think THM means when Her Majesty told Thatcher “You can cut out all that extremist bollox love, I’m not having my kingdom ruined by those divisive policies” or words to that effect. Unfortunately Thatcher just ignored her and continued undeterred with her political extremism. Still, Her Majesty tried her best – so not really her fault.

One of the few times I can think of of the royals getting involved in extremist politics was the duke of windsor as a nazi sympathiser in WW2

teamhurtmore – I don’t think they are feigning ignorance of modern British history and politics for effect. Put them right and tell them, won’t you ?

I’m certainly not pretending. All i can think of them doing is chatting up the nazi’s but that was before queenie.

They did also change their name to counter extremism. Gaw’ bless ’em.

😆

Have you been away all weekend El-bent?

What has one’s location got to do with this? Is this laffer curve related?

Thankfully the wall-to-wall sycophantic nonsense from almost all media outlets is almost all over and I’ve managed to avoid most of it.

This morning I was listening to the Today programme on the way to biking and there was a piece about the Queen’s love of horse racing:

She is apparently an expert on horse racing, which is fair enough, and owns horses. Were she not ‘regal’, it was suggested that she may well have worked in horse breeding.

It was said that her ambition was,

“to breed a horse that was, “

wait for it….

“faster than everybody else’s”

-Profound stuff indeed.

I got the impression that Evan Davis was as amused as I was 😉

ernie_lynch – Member
teamhurtmore – I don’t think they are feigning ignorance of modern British history and politics for effect. Put them right and tell them, won’t you ?

Ernie, one only has to compare the political and social stability in the UK throughout the twentieth century and possibly the 21st with the experiences in countries that abolished the monarchy. It doesn’t take much thought or effort to find examples that lurched to the extreme left and others to the extreme right. Consider also those European countries who re-instated monarchies having endured extreme political regimes. It really isn’t that hard.

The political landscape in the UK, in contrast has been remarkably stable to the extent that we/the media and the politically ignorant have to largely “invent” extremes as STW shows only too well even in the quotes above 😉

El-bent, nice try but remember who it is that goes on about Laffer Curves (hint, he has posted here but probably cant find the real economic framework that the gov is using to determine tax policy on Wiki so bores everyone about LCs instead).

Aristotle – so the answer from a RACE horse breeder to the question should presumably be to breed horses that are slower than everyone else’s? Imagine the response to that

Thanks goodness I had a 5 hour ride instead!

Nice of the Red Arrows to give me a fly-past over the house on their way home from That London.

Watched (selectively) the show on iPlayer. Actually thought most of it was pretty good. Avoided Cliff Pilchard and Robbie Clunker Williams. Macca’s voice is getting a bit past it, mind.

Heeeeeere’s….. Grace!

Teamhurtmore you dont seem to realise that different countries have different politics. What has the queen actually done as unless we can see some way she’s been responsible for stability how can we say she’s been the cause?

I’m not sure that the monarchy can claim to be responsible for preventing a revolution in Britain. Monarchs didn’t do much to prevent them in neighbouring countries. We Brits are a complex bunch who moan a lot, but don’t often act upon it. The weather is poor all year-round too. Even when we go out and loot JD Sports en masse in our cities, we stop when it rains.

Of course a race horse breeder is trying to be faster than others. It goes without saying…. It is just another example of the heart-warming, wonderful non-stories being spouted about the queen at the moment.

A-A, on the contrary I have accepted earlier that some of the benefits that can be attributed to a constitutional monarchy can be achieved elsewhere (in fact done that twice in this thread). I do not believe that the monarchy is perfect nor that it is the only system. However, I do believe that in general it does a pretty good job in the UK and, as its Head, the Queen has made an important contribution to our society that has been worth celebrating this weekend. I have also indicated where the opposite reaction has happened and that the modern invention of democracy is itself not without faults. Its almost incredible (in the true sense of the word) that after the struggle against apartheid for example that many SA have rejected the benefits of democracy so quickly.

Aristotle – Member
It is just another example of the heart-warming, wonderful non-stories being spouted about the queen at the moment.

It must have been a grueling weekend indeed. 😉