Perhaps we should look at ourselves? Maybe there is just something a bit weird about a relatively small group of white males who find an attraction to riding bikes through mud and slop. Most of my white male friends and colleagues think I am stupid for doing it and I barely know any women who have even the slightest interest.

Just listened to the podcast.
Thanks for sharing it. Some interesting things in there.

For those denying racism in cycling I have one simple question when Eliot Jackson told a story at the start and said people constantly say to him “oh do you think you would be on giant if you wasn’t black” – how is that not racist?!? These people are saying his colour is the only reason he is/was on Giant. Do people say hey Gwin are you only on Intense because you’re white. No! There is racism in cycling fact.

i understand that for young asians bikes are looked down upon as a form of transport you have to ride if you haven’t made and if you ride a bike you cannot afford car

Asia is a very diverse place. You really can’t generalize like that, it would be like assuming that Canadians are like Brazilians because they come from similar timezones.

My guess is that a lot of it is whether countries have several generations of middle-class people. Sports that require expensive equipment are limited to people who are not worried about where their next meal is coming from, but it takes several generations for sports to become well established – you need parents who are willing to put the time and effort into organizing it for their kids. Once you have an established base, participation increases exponentially with each new generation as people get their friends and friends’ kids involved.

love it

there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!

Totally the wrong attitude. Why ?

For a start no one is pontificating and secondly it is being discussed which surely is the aim ?

It seems like some folk a going to feel offended regardless.

Agree with brads, that’s not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this. The podcast explores loads of the areas covered on the thread, you should listen to it.

Better than me, as I clearly missed the bit about Eliot Jackson being accused of positive discrimination becuase he was riding a Giant. That’s horrible. Imagine putting in all that hard work to break down the barriers, then finding out you had to ride a **** Giant :(

Hols I meant young affluent asians that are British.

Agree with brads, that’s not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this. The podcast explores loads of the areas covered on the thread, you should listen to it.

But people don’t want to do that. It means having a really uncomfortable conversation and making some realisations about yourself that could mean admitting that you may have an unconscious racist bias. Its the stuff talked about at the start of the podcast crossing the road when you seen a person of colour, clutching your bag or phone at that point a judgment has been made on how that person looks. To quote Gregg Popovich we need to get comfortable with the uncomfortable.

White men are exactly the people who need to talk about racism as they are the group who have the most power/position/privilege to actually improve anything within companies, society, sport.

Nobody is saying the majority of people who enjoy a bike ride are Racsits/bigots/eletists, but they are mostly white and mostly men, that is a fact that is hard to escape.

And I can’t think of anyone who I’ve ever ridden with, who would focus on another person’s race/gender/orientation rather than the fact that they’re on a bicycle and that is a common experience and shared joy in life.

That’s not really what was being said, more that the “Very white, very male” make up of cycling, or more widely outdoor sports in general, could well be acting as a deterrent in itself, irrespective of the inclusive, welcoming nature of these sports and their participants. All of which begs the question, how do you address that issue?

The thing that struck me as most interesting was that the main “way forwards” proposed in the podcast was more commercial than anything else.

The suggestion being that wider diversity in MTB/cycling will be driven more by outdoor sports brands/companies recognising that people of colour are an untapped market for their products, but that in order to get their hands on their money they will need to present the various niches of the sport as appealing, inclusive and reflective of something more than just a welcoming version of “white male culture”…

And they’re right, that’s probably the most likely route by which you drive wider participation, you basically advertise it. Nobody can really say they weren’t baited into MTBs in their youth by glossy mags presenting exciting outdoor adventures and shiny, wheeled toys (well I can’t anyway) plus a bit of peer pressure…

These days it’s more widespread and directly accessible, a few Insta/facebook posts and a linked website and you’ve got yourself a campaign, sustain that for long enough and the world does change to mirror what you’re selling (unless you’re sick bikes perhaps?).

and If CV19 has proven anything to the bicycle industry it’s that uptake by new groups can be driven by more than just bling and wealth signalling (noting that SBC have been pushing some of their blingiest bikes ever, quite hard this last couple of weeks).

Nobody is saying the majority of people who enjoy a bike ride are Racsits/bigots/eletists, but they are mostly white and mostly men, that is a fact that is hard to escape.

True, but it does not prove or even suggest that the reason most bikers are white men is the reason why there are not more black and asian people doing it. Why do we think that the representation in biking or anything should reflect society? We live in a multi cultural society and some elements of that choose to and prefer to stay within their own cultural groups. that’s not the fault of white men. I’m all for promoting cycling to everyone, promoting the mental and physical benefits of it, but you can take a horse to water but it wont necessarily want to drink. Plenty of young British Asians kicking about Cannock Chase at weekends so no evidence of real barriers to entry. OK they’re not keen riders, just a bunch of kids having fun on bikes, so all good in my book.

Looking at Black people in particular only 3% of the UK population are black and 97% of that 3% live in London. Why would you attribute the rarity of black cyclists outside of London to racism? It’s ridiculous.

Asia is a very diverse place. You really can’t generalize like that, i

Not sure that is true. There is alot of cultural commonality across Asia, its not that diverse especially SE Asia. For example they are all very ambitious and association with cycling is that it is a form of transport for poor people so most wont be seen dead on a bike. Especially those from the poorer end of society. Those with money will only be seen on a £10k super bike again as much of a statement of their success and status. Also due to their drive and ambition they don’t value recreational time as much as us westerners do…they want to be working far more hours and have less time to commit to frivolous activities that are not going to further their careers. Also some are very family orientated, especially Indians and Pakistani’s, and commit far more time to being with their families than us westerners do, so have less time to spend half a day a week or more messing about with bikes.

I think its far more complicated and in depth that a few racists bandying around a few racist jibes and comments.

Also women make up 50% of our population so are massively underrepresented in cycling. Does that mean us male white bikers are sexist too? I’d like to see someone tell my wife she shouldn’t be riding a bike if she was inclined to do so.

I had an interesting board meeting last night where diversity in cycling was discussed in depth.

In Scotland, 96% of people are White. So you are looking at a tiny part of the population to start with.

Devide that by the percentage of people who might want to mountain bike, you are looking at a very small amount of mtbers who might not be white in Scotland. The lack of black people in the sport in scotland isnt due to racism or lack of diversity, it is just numbers. And we all know the best mtbers come from Scotland, right????

This is obviously very different to other parts of the uk and I would presume any non white people looking to mtb might face cultural barriers to some extent.

One of the women who worked there who was of Pakistani origin found all the campaigns to get BAME people in to the countryside hilarious

I have the same experience. A colleague is of Pakistani origin. He does ride bikes, road & mtb. Before the lock down we used to do a company ride on occasion. He always says to me that his family cannot see the worth in it and he should spend is time with his family.

Agree with brads, that’s not a good attitude TJ. As a community, we absolutely should be talking about this.

Hmmmmm

should have made my point clearer

I find discussions on here about race and gender highly amusing for two reasons – 1) with a mainly white and male demographic the majority of us have no idea what it is even the best intentioned and 2) a significant part of the membership simply refuse to aknowledge anything can be wrong because they are “colour blind”

I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance

Not that we should not discuss it but that discussions on here are laughable in their ignorance. On a previous thread about racism we had the spectacle of someone who has experienced racism having their experiences belittled and being told they are wrong

I’m not sure what it is about road cycling and MTB but BMX has lots of diversity within it that I see, BLM led to some stories of some people within the industry being racist and they were dropped by their brands.

As someone that BMX’d through my teens thru to my thirties, only picking up road cycling for commuting in my late twenties and MTB when I turned 30. I didn’t see the appeal of either when I was younger or understand the cost to enter either. BMX was a cheap sport to get into, with lots of places to ride straight outside the front door, I think the same about the explosion of scooter rats, its a sport with a really cheap entry point and lots of places to do it.

I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance

So point out the ignorance in a constructive way, that’s how we learn (assuming it’s simple ignorance, not active negativity). Don’t call it laughable etc. If people are wary of the topic because of your attitude or being called out as ignorant, you’re not helping.

A lot of comments seem to indicate that those who have the most to say here are also the ones who didn’t listen to the podcast? Or decided to listen and instead conflate the issues discussed/ignore the podcast to instead place strawmen to poke at here?

I’d suggest this to be one of the main problems with almost any discussion in these times. The March Of The Strawmen. Shall they ever be seated/listen long enough to turn the tide?

https://www.artsy.net/artwork/david-hockney-a-room-full-of-straw-2

I’ll catch up with the podcast at the weekend.
Been keeping tabs on the thread out of interest as I’ve got afro-Caribbean heritage.
All the lads I ride with are all white any strangely enough it was me that got most of them into biking. We do local ish events such as boltby bash, ard rock and pmba and it is surprising at how little representation there is from the BAME community. I do think it’s on the up but the growth is very small.

Thanks for the link OP, I’ll try and listen when I have an opportunity. In Geography / Earth science we get far lower participation / applications from BAME students than proportional and that is a problem if we truly want a representative voice when making decisions that affect all of us. It has been useful listening to Mya-Rose Craig amongst others in the birding / conservation world about different barriers to participation. But also I am acutely aware it is also not our (white British) place to assert our cultural views about the outdoors – that would be imperialist. So I like Mya’s selling point that getting into nature can be great for your mental health and enabling people to discover what is on their doorsteps as much as in rural areas. And at the same time, enlightening those of us who do participate in outdoor activities that some people do sometimes have racist (very rarely individual, structural) encounters and through a better awareness we are more likely to call it out and ensure it doesn’t keep happening – whether that be micro-aggressions, well-meaning acts that are actually racist (e.g. patronising someone) or more structural issues like how Police deal with situations that arise from a BAME person being in a predominantly White environment.

Going to have to call that out as rubbish, sorry. I see a fair mix or male, female young old moneyed and not so moneyed.

Mostly white, yes but not exclusively but mostly.

Rubbish? I’d like to hear your idea of a ‘fair mix’. Look at who writes the magazines, who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male. I didn’t say they are racist, but just to look at ourselves and think about it. I’m not accusing all us white menfolk of racism, just that we need to see ourselves in context.

Look at who writes the magazines, who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male.

But isn’t there a lot more whites in Europe than any others ? Therefore it’s not a massive shock, just simple numbers.

As i said earlier, if i go to Swinley or FoD this weekend, i’ll be amazed if i see 1 person who’s none white on the trails… Is that because of racism ? or just that other ethnic groups simply ride a lot less.

If we are using representation / participation to judge racism in sport it is fair to say the NBA is pretty racist, ageist and heightist.

This my friends, is an Outrage 😂

My view is hopefully we still live in a capitalist society were the desire / need to sell bikes, energy drink and streaming sport will far outweigh the desire / want to be racist for anyone that matters.

 who presents the YouTube channels. The vast majority of riders are white and male. I didn’t say they are racist, but just to look at ourselves and think about it.

I have thought about it and got stuck at what exactly is stopping anyone setting up YouTube channel about bikes if they want to? And why does race make any difference to anyone’s ability to set one up? You need a camera and a laptop and the ability to make something people want to watch

In answer to weeksy the point is why do they ride less? How much is internal and how much is eternal pressure? As a minority absorbs much of the culture around it, for better or worse, one would expect differences in leisure behaviour to diminish. However the only obvious BAME member who has contributed to this thread has pointed out that they were and are subject to at least covert racism. Racism in some parts of the country is still pretty strong. I have friends from clubs I used to belong to who are by their own admission racist. They know my view so we avoid that subject, or at least don’t fall out over it as there is no way I could change their mindset. That’s not to say they would behave differently but they’ve told me how they feel.

Hmmmmm
should have made my point clearer
I find discussions on here about race and gender highly amusing for two reasons – 1) with a mainly white and male demographic the majority of us have no idea what it is even the best intentioned and 2) a significant part of the membership simply refuse to aknowledge
,,,,,,,,Lots of other stuff

Well in that case I’ll not bother.
I don’t know any black folk but they obviously don’t like bikes.

Better ?

Rubbish? I’d like to hear your idea of a ‘fair mix’.

Glentress on a Saturday.

That was a really good listen that… recommended. Touches on a lot of the topics and ideas mooted in this thread (presumably by people who haven’t listened to it yet). Well worth checking out. In fact, worth flagging up with a news story on the non-forum part of this site.

If we are using representation / participation to judge racism in sport it is fair to say the NBA is pretty racist, ageist and heightist.

Two things, Firstly you need to reframe the context of racism and see it more as something thats structural / oppressive aka systemic racism. Secondly white people account for about 20% of the league I can bet in professional cycling you wouldn’t see the same stat but for non white cyclists.

At the risk of repeating myself to about 10 people upthread, have a listen to the podcast. It is pretty long but worthwhile. It will affirm some of your points, challenge others and answer some of your questions.

I know enough to know that with my incredibly limited experience of racism that I do not know enough to make a significant contribution to the debate and many of the contributions are laughable in their ignorance

But sadly, TJ, you’ve made a negative contribution instead. You could have said “listen to the podcast, it adds to the discussion” instead of laughing at people. I do get what you mean, about not being able to properly understand racism or sexism from my privileged position. But being a part of the debate I think can help – even if it makes you examine the polar opposite it can be beneficial.

That was well worth a listen.

A good podcast. I listened during the stressed part of my day but it did make me want to go back a check out a couple of points again.

and I barely know any women who have even the slightest interest.

No no, this is the racism thread. For sexism you’ll have to start one of your own :wink:

Fair few Malaysian blokes down my way who MTB. Think they mostly picked up in the old country, as quite big sport out there. Good lads. Great food. All seem to ride Capras!

@TheBrick Thanks for posting this. I don’t even know who Eliot Jackson and Phil Young are but this is an interesting podcast. Particularly what Phil Young has to say about growing up black in London and taking part in sport and recreation. It’s also an education to read the replies to this post – in more ways than one.

What do the posts on here tell you ?

So there about 1.85 million Black people on the UK of which 1.09 million live on London.

Roughly 1.3 million people ride there bikes of road on a regular bases in the UK or roughly 1.94% of the population. So if we say that a similar percentage of Black people would be into mountain biking (excluding the high number of people who live in a urban environment) that gives you a participation level of roughly 35,890.

This obviously does not account for other minority groups but when you take numbers into account it is very little wonder that a minority sport has a small participation from a minority group.

Having said that I live in the middle of nowhere and often see Asian mtbers out and about and think that anyone wanting to get out in the fresh air is a great thing.

The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim

The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim

I don’t normally look at the STW FB links (or the replies). Is it common for such a large number to be from the US? I don’t  think there’s such a high proportion actually use the forum.

The comments on the STW facebook post about this podcast are quite spectacularly grim

One the plus side, a lot were posting to say they were unfollowing…

Is it common for such a large number to be from the US?

Yeah, with the VAST majority not knowing/caring it’s a UK publication