[Closed] Racial Profiling of Illegal Immigrants

I reckon there are a fair number of Aussies/NZ's who 'overstay', but on the whole you'd suggest it'd be folk from poor countries - not rocket science.

At the current rate of progress is won't be long till the BNP / NF are seen as being too liberal / left wing....

I find little worth in an article that is led by tweets from comedians.
Racial profiling is a tricky one straddling the line between common sense and discrimination so I'm sure that the Home Office's policies are based on more than just physical characteristics. Whether those actioning them follow those policies to the letter might be a bit more questionable.

I thought the Home offices deportation efforts were largely poster and text related nowadays?

Seems daft not to racially profile people really. Are they specifically targeting gingers?

My reasoning:

The majority of white Europeans descent in the UK will have a right to be under the EU freedom of movement rules

I'm not sure you would feel the same if you had a girlfriend who wasn't white.

Funnily enough there are loads of brown people legally here in the UK, thus I don't think racial profiling is a particularly good idea. It makes them feel like Jews during the lead up to Kristallnacht, no freaking empathy among a lot of white people at all.

There is a certain section of society who look a certain way and can be guaranteed to steal from my shop.
When they come in we pay them more attention than we would someone who fits our shops demographic.

Round my home town it's the white working class kids that steal, point is, it's usually the deprived.

Why stop there, if you measure their heads and their feature we could also find out who are criminals and sub-normals, may have been tried before.

Why stop there, if you measure their heads and their feature we could also find out who are criminals and sub-normals, may have been tried before.

Dead right! People with big beards tend to be a lot more blowy uppy than other members of society. And a lot shoutier

of brown people legally

only kidding like

duplicate post

What makes you think Tom is a he you sexist?

BAN HIM

****ing hell, read the context of the post and get the idea there might be some sarcasm in there.

Given that we seem to believe that racial profiling has relevance to so many parts of our lives (mistakenly IMO) why not in this case?

I had the weirdest profile question recently. Lots of categories for black people, quite a few for Asians and then two for white people - (1) white and (2) Irish. What was that about? Totally bizarre.

Ive seen this done before (several years back) at camden tube
they were definately targeting asian and black people then
was with one of my housemates - an american (ginger!!) whod long overstayed his visa and we just walked through no probs it was only after he said hed been bricking it! (we were quite stoned at the time tho)

also saw several asians having their backpacks searched after the tube bombings

not sure how they caught him but the boyfriend of another housemate did get sent back to Oz after several years visa-less

grunty - Member

Whilst there are a large number of British people of Asians and African descent, you will find that the majority of illegal immigrants will be of Asian or African descent.

It can look reasonable from that angle but when you turn it around, what are the odds that a particular asian or african person in the street is an illegal immigrant? Very, very small. You don't look at how much more likely it is compared to white people, you look at how likely it is as an absolute. And the answer, whether you're looking at white people, brown people, whatever, is "not very bloody likely at all", making it all a waste of time.

So it'd be a bad idea even if it weren't racist as ****. Which it is.

b r - Member
I reckon there are a fair number of Aussies/NZ's who 'overstay', but on the whole you'd suggest it'd be folk from poor countries - not rocket science.

and yet to get here theyve probably paid thousands, so do they represent the wealthier, better motivated, more resourceful citizens of their country

We profile most things subconsciously or otherwise.

Do you form an opinion of a fellow MTBer based on the bike they are riding and kit they are wearing?

If they are riding an Orange 5 how often does it hold that they work in IT and drive an Audi?

I doubt profiling produces that much more successful results in terms of finding illegal immigrants, but do not doubt it goes on intentionally or not.

5thElefant - Member

Too complicated. Anyone with a beard. Job done.

Audaxers? - you'd have to send them a long long way away though...they'd only see it as challenge to ride back again otherwise.

My reasoning:

The majority of white Europeans descent in the UK will have a right to be under the EU freedom of movement rules.

Whilst there are a large number of British people of Asians and African descent, you will find that the majority of illegal immigrants will be of Asian or African descent.

Your thoughts?

You are Nick Griffin and I claim my £5.00

grunty - Member

.....you will find that the majority of illegal immigrants will be of Asian or African descent.

Why do you say that ?

According to the Home Office : [url= http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451993.html?c=on ]Most illegal immigrants are likely to be white[/url]

Seriously, don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail 💡

Most of them are Eastern European I'd say.

just **** everyone. can't be arsed with other people. Just go away.

Oops only just read the link. I thought it was referring to profiling people once they were caught, not beforehand. Preemptive selection based on race is a no-no IMO and as Ernie noted not backed up by facts in any case.

Nice one Ernie, my google fu was weak today on the actual numbers

Audaxers? - you'd have to send them a long long way away though...they'd only see it as challenge to ride back again otherwise.

That wins one whole internet! 😆

I had the weirdest profile question recently. Lots of categories for black people, quite a few for Asians and then two for white people - (1) white and (2) Irish. What was that about? Totally bizarre.

That is why they asked that bizarre question

as for profiling it is in keeping with this well thought out tactic based on nothing more than appearing tough to the closet racist who have left the tory party.

According to the Home Office : Most illegal immigrants are likely to be white

Apologies if I've misread, as I've just skim read that link, but it seems that according to the Home Office
"Most visitors are likely to be white"
and from that the indymedia website appears to have made a somewhat ambitious leap of logic that therefore -
"Most illegal immigrants will also be white"

Or have I missed something?

this is who I blame

[img] ?6[/img]

As long as the welfare state / benefit system still exist you will find people still willing to risk it all to try their luck.

My parents used to ask me why I was earning peanuts while others (some of them illegal and some legal short term work contract) that have gone/sent home boasted about the "roads here being paved with gold" and free for all ... some even boasted about being given free home and free maids when one has fallen ill/sick.

To top it up the gov't would give them money too!!! 😯 For some they boasted about 5 figures income (exchange rate) per month which sounded too good to be true but then you have to remember majority of those that spoke to my parents were rather illiterate so in a way they would not know what's legal or illegal. They don't care as the chance is too good to miss.

Personally, if I could turn back the clock I would rather be somewhere else than in UK.

Bloody education and loose women brought me here long time ago as a young man ... arrrghhh ... stuck now as I find it hard to learn another language or culture otherwise I would go. Not young anymore. Going home is not a good option now as life will be very hard for a non-muslamic person.

Oh yes ... I am a legal alien but life is still very hard after all these years.

🙁

Lets do sweet **** all.

This is coming from one of my parents from outside the UK, both my partners parents from outside the UK and my son half one race.

Lets do nothing. Lets hold off. Let someone else deal with it later.

It'll get to a point where theyll be real nasty racism and murder/violence to 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants.

Something needs to be done not plastic liberalism

Can I have either of those last two posts translated into sense please?

Junkyard - lazarus

Can I have either of those last two posts translated into sense please?

😆 I will try to translate mine. The welfare state is such an attractive system to abuse that everyone wants a piece of it.

I will attempt to translate hora's ... it's not supposed to be free for all and that there should not be shame in telling others who come here illegally that they are not welcome.

Lets do sweet **** all.

Take it easy folks, chill !

This is coming from one of my parents from outside the UK, both my partners parents from outside the UK and my son half one race.

One of my parents is overseas and says stuff !
However I have two wives and their parents are not UK citizens, oh and one son who is of mixed heritage.

Lets do nothing. Lets hold off. Let someone else deal with it later.

I repeat my assertion to take it easy, sod it !

It'll get to a point where theyll be real nasty racism and murder/violence to 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants.

Nasty racist folk don't like our carefree attitude !

Something needs to be done not plastic liberalism

Ignore the pseudo-intellectual drivel written in the gruniad !

The welfare state is such an attractive system to abuse that everyone wants a piece of it.

top work on Horas thanks

now how exactly does an illegal immigrant access the welfare state?

chewkw - Member

I will try to translate mine. The welfare state is such an attractive system to abuse that everyone wants a piece of it.

Except illegal immigrants, who can't access it. Well, almost, there are some access points like the NHS where there is little screening (and quite right- can't turn away a sick person regardless of legality). And it is possible to use identity fraud etc, though not easy. Bottom line is, most illegal immigrants, and many legal immigrants, have little or no access to the welfare state.

Northwind - Member

Except illegal immigrants, who can't access it. Well, almost, there are some access points like the NHS where there is little screening (and quite right- can't turn away a sick person regardless of legality). And it is possible to use identity fraud etc, though not easy. Bottom line is, most illegal immigrants, and many legal immigrants, have little or no access to the welfare state.

But that's not what they were sold on. They were sold on the fact that it's easy to get benefits so long as they use some tricks.

Many years ago it was so easy so long as you are a resident of UK. You might argue the legality of being a resident but I can bet you most of them consider themselves residents. They do not have a clue the meaning of the term "residency".

These "screenings" only started recently but it's a bit too late I am afraid. Yes, I agree that a sick person should be entitled to medical help no matter where s/he is but advertising it as free loudly does not help.

Fraud? No much can be done really. Bear in mind you still need to feed them in jail if they are caught.

😯

mind you, if 'they' can't get on the benefits bandwagon, at least I've seen them setting up hand car wash £5 off their own back, trying to get something going after risking it all getting here, not sitting on their non-brown thoroughbred (obese) arses.

EDIT, sorry, my point is that the immigrant issue is a red herring- the numbers dont stack up- we have enough home-grown people trying but not able to find a job (whilst the economy is knacked)and enough home-grown people who will abuse the system

They were sold on the fact that it's easy to get benefits so long as they use some tricks.

Fraud? No much can be done really

The most common form of benefit fraud is when a person receives benefits, but continues or begins employment. Another common form of fraud is when the receivers of benefits claim that they live alone, but they are financially supported by a partner or spouse.

In 2002, the DWP launched a Targeting Benefit Thieves advertising campaign to spread the message that benefit fraud carried a criminal sanction. The most recent campaign makes claims about the likelihood of getting caught and the consequences of committing benefit fraud using ‘And they thought they’d never be caught’ as the leading slogan.

I am sure it does occur but it will be very rare compared to non illegal fraud and illegal working

The most common form of benefit fraud is when a person receives benefits, but continues or begins employment.

From my experience, the most common form of benefit fraud is when the "Jobseeker" declares that they are actively seeking work... 😉

The Tory leadership and the spin doctors who are advising them on beefing up their public appearance on this toxic but comparatively minor issue (in real terms )purely to recoup votes from UKIP and to seperate themselves electorally from their Lib Dems coalition partners, should hang their heads in shame.They are creating a climate of fear amongst a gullible pubic by demonising ethnic groups in a way that the EDL/BNP can only dream of.Innocent people will suffer,as always.

DenDennis - Member

mind you, if 'they' can't get on the benefits bandwagon, at least I've seen them setting up hand car wash £5 off their own back, trying to get something going after risking it all getting here, not sitting on their non-brown thoroughbred (obese) arses.

That I have no problem with because that is their hard earn money. All credits to them but not all are able to do so to sustain themselves.

Junkyard - lazarus

I am not so sure they read the Daily Mail

given the low levels of fraud in benefits claims have you any proof of what % is illegal immigrants as opposed to false claims by legal residents.

Unfortunately whether they read DM or not the fact that it happens.

As for the % of claimants that does not take much to figure out really since the legal residents will always outweigh the illegal ones. i.e. they are (the illegals) in foreign land. However, the legal residents will argue that it is their "birth" right to milk the system as compare to the illegal ones. Hence, the future tension.

😯

"It can look reasonable from that angle but when you turn it around, what are the odds that a particular asian or african person in the street is an illegal immigrant? Very, very small. "

Yes, this is the whole point about racial profiling that gets missed: leaving aside the legality and morality of it, it's just not very effective. Race is such a low value indicator of illegal immigration that its a practical useless selection criteria for dedication of resources. If you want to find illegal immigrants (and I'm not sure the government really does), you need a whole bunch of other indicators.

By the way, iirc the term racial profiling comes from New Jersey where it was the supposed substantiation for white cops to stop black drivers: "most of the car thieves we arrest are black so we should target black drivers because they're more likely to be car thieves". But that was patent nonsense and a fig leaf for knuckle-dragging bigotry. Weirdly, the critique of racial profiling here seems to assume there is some evil science or logic behind it - but there isn't.

When even UKIP are saying you're going to far, you really have to have a rethink:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/02/ukip-condemns-home-office-illegal-immigrants

Such a waste of energy all this country bollocks. Let's get rid of all borders, pool the earth's resources and knowledge and explore the universe together in peace.

That's that sorted, next!

Bloody humans, coming onto our planet uninvited. Martian jobs for Martian workers, I say.

the minister responsible was explaining on radio how they operations[ locations] were intelligence led and they could only stop people base don evidence - which could include the way you acted when realising they were there- never quite explained what the intelligence was though I feel certain it was [s]non existent[/s] compelling in a sexed up dossier kind of way

He also admitted they had no actual powers and you did not even need to tell them your name

It seems to me , ignoring your view on this, that they were acting ultra vires.

Still the top tip , if you listen to radio 4 is just dont tell them your name and walk off - as they have no actual intelligence on you personally. Despite the operation being "intelligence led" they have no actual powers to do anything

If I ever see them I will have some fun acting shifty then getting them to explain their powers to me

[img] [/img]

😀

Yes, this is the whole point about racial profiling that gets missed: leaving aside the legality and morality of it, it's just not very effective. Race is such a low value indicator of illegal immigration that its a practical useless selection criteria for dedication of resources.

Seeing as the Walthamstow operation that has received the most criticism resulted in the arrest of fourteen people, I think its clear that whatever criteria was applied on the day was far from being practically useless.

How many of them were found to be here illegally?

...and that the criteria applied on the day went beyond just race I.e. there were a whole bunch of other indicators, as someone (me) so brilliantly phrased it earlier on the page.

Seeing as the Walthamstow operation that has received the most criticism resulted in the arrest of fourteen people, I think its clear that whatever criteria was applied on the day was far from being practically useless.

Unfortunately whether they read DM or not the fact that it happens.

.......resulted in the arrest of fourteen people, I think its clear that whatever criteria was applied on the day was far from being practically useless.

Perhaps the UK Border Agency can use its very scare resources more effectively than organising high publicity political stunts to counter the UKIP threat which the Tory government is facing ?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10176439/Immigration-backlog-tops-500000-and-will-take-37-years-to-clear-warn-MPs.html ]Immigration backlog tops 500,000 and will take 37 years to clear, warn MPs[/url]

[b][i]The total features more than 4,000 foreign criminals the government is trying to deport, 33,500 asylum cases and 61,000 cases which are still awaiting inputting into computer systems.

It has risen by 56 per cent in just three months. At the current rate it will take 37 years to clear and the Home Office cannot confirm that this is the last of the backlogs. [/i][/b]

never quite explained what the intelligence was

I presume it's the same trick they were pulling when they were using metal detectors at stations and "inviting" selected people to go through them.

Refusal to "voluntarily" go through a metal detector was seen as reasonable suspicion that you might be carrying a knife, so the officers were then able to search you.

Yes indeed that was what i was suggesting the intelligence was paper thin and the only example he could cite was someone acting "shifty"

I would be very surprised if these were legal and the "intelligence " real

Yes, if it was real intelligence against specific individuals, they'd go for them at their house or workplace. Not randomly hope they'll wander through a station.

yes it is like targeting a road for uninsured cars/illegal drivers etc - I am sure it would work [ catch someone] as long as we picked a busy enough road. However I fail to see how I can "intelligently" spot the legal from the non legal

Is it the colour of the car?

Not randomly hope they'll wander through a station.

[img] [/img]

"Publicly checking that people at railway stations have the correct papers is a very good way of instilling fear Helga"

So if you're stopped at one of these random checks, how do you prove you're not an illegal immigrant?

So if you're stopped at one of these random checks, how do you prove you're not an illegal immigrant?

The secret handshake.

Is that the one where if you use fingers rather than a hook, they let you stay?

if you're stopped at one of these random checks, how do you prove you're not an illegal immigrant?

I wouldn't believe anything written in The Telegraph about immigrants & immigration!

You dont have to,unless they have some evidence.

According to the Home Office as soon as you are arrested you are no longer a "suspect" but an "offender".

So presumably all they need to do is arrest you on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant and you immediately become offender - no further evidence is required.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/news/immigration-offenders-arrested-in-home-office-raids ]Immigration offenders arrested in Home Office operations[/url]

Although to be fair to the Home Office despite initially referring to those arrested as "immigration offenders", they do later on one occasion refer to them as "suspected immigration offenders".

It's as if they aren't entirely sure of the legal position of those they have arrested. You'd think that the Home Office would check with their lawyers in their legal department, wouldn't you ?

Such a sloppy and casual attitude by the Home Office towards the legal process doesn't bode well for those they have arrested.

Such a sloppy and casual attitude by the Home Office towards the legal process doesn't bode well for those they have arrested.

It's OK, they're not white, so normal due process etc doesn't apply. Keeps the backbenchers happy you see.

Anyone seen Children of Men - very similar dystopian future in that film...

Junkyard - lazarus

"Unfortunately whether they read DM or not the fact that it happens."

Oh the assert something ludicrous, offer no evidence to support it, insist it is still true approach to informed debate...well played that "trumps" any rational point I could make.

Yes, it does ludicrous when I do not have the actual statistical evidence to support my views. I guess I just have to wait for all the evidence to surface by itself at a later date. Hope it's not too late by then ...

To repeat , as an illegal immigrant has no access to benefits exactly why would they come here to access them ? Its frothing paranoid gibberish hence you dont even try to offer any evidence to support your view that this is why they do it

Put it another way what evidence do you need to access benefits?

Identity card? Nope, no such thing here because this is free society.
Passport? Nope, never need to travel.
Driving license? Nope, never need to drive.
Bank account? Yes, got that.
NI? Yes, got that.
Address? Yes, got that.
Bills? Yes, got that.
What else?

Does that mean a person can access benefits with the information above?

How do you proof the person is genuine? What checks are in place?
😯

chewkw you are basically stating the case for ID cards

chewkw - Member

Put it another way what evidence do you need to access benefits?

A NI number, which requires proof of ID

[b]What happens when you apply for a National Insurance number[/b]
Jobcentre Plus will arrange an 'Evidence of Identity' interview for you or send you a postal application. If relevant, they will confirm the date, time and location of your interview and what information/documentation you need to support your application.
What to expect at the 'Evidence of identity' interview
The interview will usually be one-to-one (unless, for example, you need an interpreter). You will be asked questions about why you need a National Insurance number, your background and circumstances.
You will also have to prove your identity. Bring as many 'identity documents' (originals, not photocopies) as you can to your interview. Examples of documents which count are:
valid passport (UK or foreign)
national identity card (UK or foreign)
residence permit or residence card including biometric immigration residency documents
full birth or adoption certificate
full marriage or civil partnership certificate
driving licence (UK or foreign)
If you don't have any of these - or other - identity documents you still must go to the interview. The information you are able to provide might be enough to prove your identity.
During the interview a National Insurance number application form will be completed and you will be asked to sign it.

And don't you need ID to open a bank account?