My wife has those books, but I must say I don’t want to read them. HP pisses me off.

Not sure I want to learn French grammar with reference to English.. I think that saying French X is like English Y makes it sound the same when it’s not.

That not really what it’s about. The books don’t really teach french at all. They explain – for example – what subject / object pronouns are and how to use them. This is the sort of thing that people often struggle with when learning any language as they know their own grammar intuitively but often haven’t examined it.

Still if you have them available to you you’ll know what they’re about and if it works for you or not. I found it helpful.

(not sure what HP means)

I haven’t studied grammar directly for a while now – I just immerse myself in French TV, music and books. Occasionally looking something up if I can’t work it out.

🙂

/edit – you’re talking about Harry Potter aren’t you… Je vais chercher mon manteau.

not sure what HP means

HP = Harry Potter

While we’ve got you here Gavin…why is it that the infinitive of the verb is used sometimes and sometimes the second person (sing/plur) for orders. The one I’m thinking of is the one I see most in France which is “Ralentir” on the autoroutes, which I would translate as “to slow down”. But you see plenty of other examples elsewhere…I just can’t think of them right now. Is it just convention or is a more polite way of asking someone to so something, rather than the more direct “ralentissez”?

Je vais chercher mon manteau

prendre?

sometimes the second person (sing/plur) for orders

I think that’s the imperative, it just looks like tu/vous.

I don’t know why there’d be infinitive on the signs though.

https://www.thoughtco.com/commands-in-french-1368854

Yes molgrips is right, ralentissez is the imperative – ie the ‘vous’ form without the vous. In that respect that’s much the same as English.

You do sometimes see instructions given using the infinitive. It’s just one of those ‘because French’ things. But you can think of there being an implied “could you…” or a “be sure to” preceding it.

(voulez-vous) ralentir.

If you see what I mean?

prendre?

You might think so but although ‘chercher’ mean look for/seek, ‘aller chercher’ means go and get.

Examples: http://context.reverso.net/traduction/francais-anglais/je+vais+chercher+mon+manteau+et+mon

Prendre would probably be ok too though. Although it’s more frequently used for food, or transactions. In which case it’s more like “I’ll take it”

Wonder if that would be understood in France, or is it too idiomatic?

In the same way? Probably not, unless they’re familiar with The Fast Show. 🙂

Ok but it was a thing even before that. Getting one’s coat = leaving.

Oh I see what you mean. Well yes maybe that would be understand, not sure myself. But without the ‘I said something silly so I’m leaving’ implications.

Thanks GavinT. Thought it might be one of those “because French” things. 🙂

[video]https://youtu.be/W–WwtbCevc[/video]

Musical subjunctive practice 🙂

I feel your pain guys.

My wife and kids need to learn and it is not easy.

I do recommend Duolingo. It’s by no means perfect but it can help. You need to look elsewhere for the proper hard grammar though.

Nice one DrJ. 🙂

I’m a bit shit at speaking French, but I can normally make myself understood using textbook vocabulary and only ever speaking the present tense 😀 but given a bit of time, I don’t think it’s that difficult a language to pick up. My major problem is that after I’ve proudly worked out how to say something, said it, checked out the “wow, impressive for an Englishman” look 8) (because they don’t realise I’m Oirish straight off), they then respond with something that sounds like “uitfeydlkd;of’q[eiogugakndpoaiuserytysjhfdbvkjdoxfubfskgblzkfkf” 😆

Infinitive

Have a read here for more on using the imperative in impersonal commands

Secret confessions … I’m not proud of it but the translation of Harry Potter into French is just awesome.

I was going to add that as well. There is something about the way it is written that really shows off the grammar in a way that makes sense

I’m impressed some of you read Proust in French. I tried to read Ulysses and gave up after 50 pages.

It explains clearly how English functions on a particular point and then goes on to explain how French is similar/differs.

It really helps get over that obstacle that most of us don’t really understand the grammar of our own language.
I ended up just using the Becherelle book <<la grammaire>> .. (the ones French kids use at school and same series as the conjugation books) and it was easier than any of the books in English I’d tried that didn’t explain the English Grammar before…and my French was good enough to read it in French by then.

When I learned some Italian I also used the Becherelle <<la grammaire italien>> which made more sense to me than an English book on Italian Grammar….

When I started to learn Polish I got to page 10 or so and decided “I’m too old for this” – now there’s a language invented to prevent anyone foreign ever getting it! It’s got to be up there with Hungarian and Finnish…

I haven’t studied grammar directly for a while now – I just immerse myself in French TV, music and books.

Now you are making me feel lazy…..when I lived in France I just did that.. and for a while I’d watch films, listen to music, read books etc. whereas now I just don’t make any effort… which is a shame given the amount of effort I put in to get where I was..

Most of us give up on it in English after 50 pages!

I think it’s just the UK/Irish “must read stream of consciousness” <<À la recherche du temps perdu>> is probably more readable in any language… but I’m not a big Joyce fan so perhaps biased.

I was going to add that as well. There is something about the way it is written that really shows off the grammar in a way that makes sense

Book 1, chapter 1, Page 1…. How many variations on look,see, read, observe …and from memory there is catch sight of on the page as well.
It’s like a whole lesson on different things you do with your eyes…

Ce fut au coin de la rue qu’il remarqua pour la première fois un détail insolite: un chat qui lisait une carte routière. Pendant un instant, Mr Dursley ne comprit pas très bien ce qu’il venait de voir. Il tourna alors la tête pour regarder une deuxième fois. Il y avait bien un chat tigré, assis au coin de Privet Drive, mais pas la moindre trace de carte routière. Qu’est-ce qui avait bien pu lui passer par la tête ? Il avait dû se laisser abuser par un reflet du soleil sur le trottoir. Mr Dursley cligna des yeux et regarda fixement le chat. Celui-ci soutint son regard.
Tandis qu’il tournait le coin de la rue et s’engageait sur la route, Mr Dursley continua d’observer le chat dans son rétroviseur. L’animal était en train de lire la plaque qui indiquait « Privet Drive »—mais non, voyons, il ne lisait pas, il regardait la plaque. Les chats sont incapables de lire des cartes ou des écriteaux

That’s certainly some nice writing! I’m also a little reluctant to get drawn into J.K.Rowling’s web but my interest is piqued…

Not exactly helpful if you want to speak French though, Srevextc. Mitterand is dead and the passé simple in conversation died with him.

after I’ve proudly worked out how to say something, said it, checked out the “wow, impressive for an Englishman” look (because they don’t realise I’m Oirish straight off), they then respond with something that sounds like “uitfeydlkd;of’q[eiogugakndpoaiuserytysjhfdbvkjdoxfubfskgblzkfkf”

Yeah, I’ve had exactly that a few times – once down the phone when I was in a call box. I said to my wife “I can’t make out a bloody word” and he heard and said “oh, what – you’re English?”

In Finland I was working with an Estonian girl who was trying to have a conversation on the phone with a French bloke. She broke off and asked me to speak to him. Lol no, I said, but she pleaded so I tried to carry on the conversation in French for a few minutes and as I stumbled he twigged I was British and switched to pretty decent English. Apparently her heavy Estonian accent was the problem 🙂

That’s certainly some nice writing! I’m also a little reluctant to get drawn into J.K.Rowling’s web but my interest is piqued…

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar! (As Freud once said)

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn’t make it universally crap. It’s definitely written for kids (but so was The Hobbit) but at the same time she seems to delight in expanding vocabulary and even better it’s a consistent level in each book. (So once you get reading you are not constantly having to reach for a dictionary…) But if you want an excuse I’d more or less guarantee JK doesn’t care if you do or don’t….

It’s really interesting how you say “nice writing” and not “nice translation” though because it really does feel like it was written in French …

In some ways it’s perhaps even better because underlying the books are a whole load of British idiosyncrasies that somehow seem more poignant written in French as it makes them seem more external. (Perhaps even because JK lived in Paris and got a bit of an external view)

It reminds me in some way’s of Voltaire’s “letters regarding the English” I read the translation into French and it doesn’t seem half so poignant as his original English….

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn’t make it universally crap.

They are poorly written, according to my wife, and seem really very derivative. Plots from the films at least are incredibly strained and the characterisation pretty rubbish.

The translation might fix part of that though.

I enjoyed them in english – the books far outstrip the films though. That excerpt above is lovely, might have to seek out some copies for my ejumakashun

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn’t make it universally crap

No absolutely! I do have a slight reluctance to read books aimed at younger readers but having said that I loved the ‘His Dark Materials’ trilogy. And Terry Pratchett’s Tiffany Aching books which I didn’t even notice were meant to be for younger readers so I’m probably full of crap. And when it comes to reading French all bets are off anyway, otherwise I wouldn’t be recommending ‘Le Petit Nicolas’ and ‘Astérix’ 🙂

They are poorly written, according to my wife, and seem really very derivative. Plots from the films at least are incredibly strained and the characterisation pretty rubbish.

Poorly written is a bit harsh… it depends where you set the bar!
JK set out to write some books for children, not a set of books to be held up as great literature and stuck on the national curriculum as something to aspire to …

Compared to Dan Brown it’s incredibly well written…. but that for me is setting a bar 10′ under the floor…. but I also read Pratchett and it’s better written than Pratchett in terms of English but perhaps less imaginative.

Badly written to me means I really can’t put up with the writing… (like Dan Brown) … but whilst you might argue Ulysees is “well written” I found it a bit of a slog… then there are books written to be acclaimed .. Some authors who were critics it always seems to me that it’s a books written by a book critic for book critics ? Harry Potter certainly isn’t that… but I found it very enjoyable top read and the writing style isn’t annoying… (and I read English and French and the 1st book in Italian as well though my Italian isn’t near good enough to be critical or not of the translation)

Haha, Dan Brown is indeed the single worst writer I’ve ever read. Absolutely shocking! Not that I imagine he cares.

Poorly written is a bit harsh… it depends where you set the bar!
JK set out to write some books for children, not a set of books to be held up as great literature and stuck on the national curriculum as something to aspire to

Don’t let her hear you suggesting that poor writing is acceptable for kids books!

She read most of the older kids/young adult bookshelf when she was working at a bookshop.. and puts HP quite far down the list.

HP in French doesn’t feel French to me. I don’t think it’s intended to be. It’s staccato and lacks flow, like an upper class Englishman speaking. Picking up books in French from junior’s teen bookshelf I can have a pretty good guess when they were written and the language used is in keeping with the social context. HP is upper class twit English and sounds it in the French translation – which is a credit to the translators.

HP in French doesn’t feel French to me. I don’t think it’s intended to be. It’s staccato and lacks flow, like an upper class Englishman speaking.

HP is upper class twit English and sounds it in the French translation – which is a credit to the translators.

Erm, yes but that’s part of the point …I think it’s meant to be like that and Harry and the Weasley family are the outsiders …and the Dursleys are the aspiring upper class twits….

Prendre would probably be ok too though. Although it’s more frequently used for food, or transactions. In which case it’s more like “I’ll take it”

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8vhHyb9S8[/video]

So it doesn’t feel French.

It’s really interesting how you say “nice writing” and not “nice translation” though because it really does feel like it was written in French …

Listen to the dialogues in “La Vie est un Long Fleuve Tranquille” for a class clash that was written in French and feels French.

Don’t let her hear you suggesting that poor writing is acceptable for kids books!

She read most of the older kids/young adult bookshelf when she was working at a bookshop.. and puts HP quite far down the list.

I don’t think it is poor writing for kids…. (not that I’m saying it’s acceptable) but it’s what you define poor writing as….

My 7yr old is very happy reading them but I might put him off reading for ever giving him some “literary acclaimed books” or books that have been written specifically to be judged on writing style.

Last weekend he had to write a poem on “His Easter Vacation” (which is good) except he had to use a whole load of spelling words which were all about telling the time… including “quarter”, “midnight”, “hour” etc.

He wrote something imaginative inside those constraints and got a house point but the choice of subject and “must use words” was only slightly better than a task to write a cheerful poem using “death, burial, dying, grandma” …. but the point was he used the words which were dictated…he would have written something far better IMHO had he just had to write a poem about Easter vacation….

Or when I got back to England I did a AF test just to get a certificate and had to write a “postcard home” …. I just created a completely artificial construct that used as many tenses as possible … and phrasal verbs and specifically French concepts that don’t really translate … the examiner had a tick list provided for them but the “clever” bit was simply sticking as many tick marks into the “postcard”…

I feel many books are written the same way…. specifically what a critic or award judge can tick off…