has anyone tried getting one?

do I just search GB Esp@cenet then try applying or is the Trevor Baylis http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com thing worth doing?

want to find out if its even patentable to start.

Thanks.

and no I wont tell you what it is.

Do a forum search on "patent". It's a regular feature here, plenty of advice, not all good.

Good first step – don't tell anyone without a non-disclosure agreement in place!

Search on Esp@cenet first, look at all kinds of prior art, not just in your field.

You can save some costs searching yourself but I'd call in the experts for draughting the actual application. One claim in the wrong order could render it useless.

Know your market. There is a not insignificant cost to draft, file and maintain in the relevant countries. The really important bit is only commit the above costs (will be thousands to properly file and maintain) if you are going to commercialise and recoup your costs, either through your own business or a licence deal.

There's a cost to file in each country you wish to protect. This will prevent sale or manufacture in that region – usually look to cover US, Europe and China/Taiwan to cover your markets and manufacturing bases.

Have a mate who works at the patent office and the process is lengthy, sometimes frustrating and may not be rewarding…. Have a look here:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/patent/p-applying.htm

what do you want to know? the whole system is set up against the little man but we did it hartlett for a minimal amount of money. Still cost us mind.
the best thing to do is look at what they call prior art, ie stuff that's already out there and see if your idea has any legs. it's very difficult and time consuming but it's worth it. the espacenet was our first port of call but some libraries have info and patent search systems, i think leeds had a good one. or make friends with a student as their university will have a free search system.
don't tell anyone what it is as once you do you can't patent it.
good luck and email if you have any other questions, oh by the way I did all the drawings for our patent and it saved us thousands so if i can you can.

Patents Information Unit at Leeds Library is a good recommendation for cheap prior art searching – I've worked with Steph and Ged there lots of times, and continue to use them even though I'm not based over that way anymore. For ~£75 they'll do, in confidence, a search on a subscription database that's much easier to work with than esp@cenet and more powerful too.

Also if you want some professional guidance any patent attorney worth talking to should be happy to give you an initial consultation without charging. Professional advice early on might focus on your mind on the potential risks and challenges before you've committed to spend on patents or other aspects of commercialisation.

There's a database of patent attorneys on the CIPA website: http://www.cipa.org.uk

is something like the Neoguard (RRP mud guard) patentable?

I know its Trademarked, but that doesn't mean people can't copy their product…does it!

I think my idea has some similarities (not is what it does etc) but in the simplicity of the design, etc.

A technology guru once told me there is more money in manufacturing and selling than there is in inventing.

Philips has got more patents than most, and has been at the forefront of many technological advances. We all have their inventions in our house, but not many have their products.

Just get it made and sell lots.

Ask yourself 3 questions about your idea:
1.Can you make it or use it?
2. Is it new (do a patent search and the market the invention is aimed at).
3. Is there an inventive stop involved? (ie, is the idea obvious to someone in the field of the invention, if so, you're be pushed to get a patent).

I've got a few via work and it's a long, expensive process. You need to think about what, if any, benefit there is to getting a patent.

1. Yes it can be made (but not by myself very well)
2. Yes it is new I believe. I can't find anything on the market and the esp search showed nothing.
3. Um. Its a simple design but wouldn't say its obvious or I am sure someone would have done it.

Yeah I'm positive the manufacturer would make the most £'s.

Reason for Patenting it is that sorting out the manufacturing of it myself would be a big (new) job, so having someone copy the idea could leave me screwed. Kinda want someone already in the business to take it on and I get a cut – so presumed I'd need to protect my idea or they could just use it and leave me high and dry.

ha – good advert palcement at side of this thread for 'making your ideas into products' with Davison.

I don't think you need a patent for what you want to do, you just need to get anyone you show it to to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Don't forget a patent will take years to get.
Another reason not to bother with a patent is that you're responsible for policing it when (if) you get one. That's another big cost if someone does copy it.(See Dyson.)
I think you need to get some 'real' advice to be sure of the best way forward. That Trevor Baylis site looks like a good place to start.

Great i'll get a NDA sorted out and a patent in time if necessary.

thanks VERY much.

Good luck, remember us when you make a million.

will do – you can have a free one.

A free *what* exactly?

😉

is something like the Neoguard (RRP mud guard) patentable?

I know its Trademarked, but that doesn't mean people can't copy their product…does it!
I would say no – it isn't a new product or a new use for a product or a new use for any of the components of the product.

The trademark is just protecting the name/brand (ie Hoover/Xerox/Bic etc)

The other option is registered design right which is very cheap method of protecting the appearence of something. You automatically gain unregistered design right when you jot an idea down on paper etc but if someone copied the idea you would have to prove they copied you. If it is registered you the onus is on them to prove it wasn't copied. For european cover it costs approx £350 to apply and lasts for 25 years with a renewal fee every five years. More info can be found via OHIM. Price for UK only is £60 for one design. Good luck 😉

Google Patent Search is also useful – it just covers US Patents but allows you to search the whole text rather than just the abstract which Espacenet does, so use in combination.

I'd say (I would wouldn't I) that the Neoguard would have been patentable – it's an innovative solution to a problem – and the technical features – flexible sheet with attachents to the crown and the lower legs – would have been patentable.

They have a Patent pending on the Neoguard I discovered.

hmm think I need to get a professional patent search done next then (any recommendations appreciated).

Just get it made and sell lots.

For anything bike related, happy to help as I have various channels I might be able to guide it through, but I won't sign NDA's. I can't be arsed.

thanks Brant, I might do that.

just worried I would be too slow to get it 'out' everywhere myself.

if it is out there, as in having been seen or described even in a pub conversation you cannot patent it safely. by safely i mean it wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on if someone challenged it.
so the mudguard you talk of will either have had the patent applied for long before they took it to the manufacturers or had a very good none disclosure contract with them.
brant's idea is sound but you have to have something that you can make a quick dollar with rather than the long term. our axle system isn't a quick buck type of arrangement and therefore it's been mega important to have the patent in place.

There's no reason why a Neo Guard could not have a Patent*. It certainly has technical features and doesn't fall into any of the non-patentable fields.

*as long as it's inventive over what was already known at the date of filing. esp@cenet and googlepatents are two good starting points.

good luck.

I had a lecture from Trevor Bayliss at university once, I seem to recall he suggested that you shouldnt use it (it being the invention) in public even if no-one knows what it is prior to patent application, the theory being if someone could later prove you tested it in a public place it could be considerd in the public domain. Seem to remember an example of a infra red traffic light monitor which despite being hidden in a non descript plastic box at the time it was trialled later could not be patented….

Im no patent law expert. its entirely possible Im talking complete bollocks

Precedent for that is set by Lux Traffic Controls Ltd v Pike Signals Ltd and Faronwise Ltd, [1993] RPC 107 Aldous J and covered in section 2(1) of the Manual of Patent Practice (which is available from ipo.gov.uk)

Tin foil hats to the ready, but I wouldn't type anything I'd come up with into the googlepatents search box before thinking carefully about Google's privacy policy on "Aggregated non-personal information".

Or more specifically I wouldn't like to be cross examined under oath in a multi-million pound patent infringement and validity court action on the subjects of the pre-filing searches I'd done and why Google was under an obligation of confidentiality in relation to a search term describing the invention and input to googlepatents before the patent filing date.

yeah I have reservations about typing any key words into google (or the like).

What about speaking to family about the idea – is that allowed before applying for the patent!?

I'm thinking long term for this as after all the design, manufacturing hassle etc) it wouldn't be worth it.

I've got a NDA written up but kinda feel I need to get the Patent rolling before I start talking to manufacturers etc.

Next step is getting a professional search done I reckon, then if all clear, getting a Patent written up (again by a professional) – Agree/Disagree, advice where to go?

Re family, OK as long as the family agree not to disclose the invention you form a confidentiality club with them under an unwritten NDA.

I think you could make a case out for it being worth it for the aheadset and Horst link patents. Are you looking for your thing to become industry standard and for you to reap royalties for the next 20 years while throwing your weight around against potential infringers, or is it brant-style a case of get it made and marketed, don't incur any up front patent costs thereby keeping the price down and by the competition is in the game you've already moved on to the next thing?

The Leeds library recommendation above is good for a cheap starting point. I've also quite happily used a firm in Wales called Patent Seekers for searches, but they'll probably charge you a few hundred pounds. Professional advice will help you decide what sort of search is appropriate, based on knowing what it is you're actually looking for.

I think there are at least three professional patent types on this thread already, but as above I'd say look for someone local with the relevant qualifications on the CIPA list.

Yeah; if doing an on-line search restrict your search statements to technology area rather than specific inventions. Duh, maybe should have mentioned that.

Telling family? Unless they are going to steal and market the idea or file 3rd party observations then I don't think any Patent Examiner is going to be giving them a call to discuss prior disclosure.

Patent examiners have a wealth of information to look at, but the results of Google searches are not part of that. They look at trade journals, scientific papers, etc and have some pretty nifty databases for previously filed patents and non-patent literature.

Have you built a prototype yet? Building a prototype of an idea to check whether it works is way way more important than getting it patented. Ideas are ten a penny, every bugger has a really good idea that they are certain will change the world, but they can't get round to building themselves. Tested ideas that actually work are much rarer.

I have been involved in filing a pointless patent (at work). We didn't release the thing, and ten other people have made things that fulfil the same purpose, waste of about £50,000 of someone else's money that was.

Joe

Also, be aware, like Brant says, that a lot of big companies will refuse to sign NDAs. This is in part because if by chance they happen to have something similar in development, and then they see your stuff, you might claim they'd ripped you off when they'd already been developing it. Signing NDAs is a big risk, and for many companies not worth it unless they're signing a sharing agreement with another major company.

Joe

thanks everyone, all info has been really helpful and much appreciated.

I'll let you know what happens…

Also, be aware, like Brant says, that a lot of big companies will refuse to sign NDAs. This is in part because if by chance they happen to have something similar in development, and then they see your stuff, you might claim they'd ripped you off when they'd already been developing it. Signing NDAs is a big risk, and for many companies not worth it unless they're signing a sharing agreement with another major company.

For me, it's usually because I hate going to the post office and don't like using my printer.

But yeah. That too.