only the judicial system and govt can fine you, everyone else is a breach of contract (if a contract even exists). The law is that contract breaches are only due compensation for the loss – so the cost of the parking period at most.

This has been said umpteen times here but I felt the need to repeat it as people do not seem to be able to read.

only the judicial system and govt can fine you

Also people acting “on behalf of” those. So if your local council uses a private company to enforce their parking restrictions, they’re legally empowered to issue fines.

yer but the private co just send bodies out, they ticket is from the council. Lets not get caught up in pedantry, you know what I mean.

I picked up one of these tickets last year, sought professional legal advice and was advised the following.

“If I was you I would ignore it, they simply rely on people bottling it and paying up”

Additionally, the HMRC vs VCS case is worth a read. The jist of what was relevant being unless the Private Parking Company have ownership rights over the land they have no business fining people. Only the landowner has this right.

It helped that my ticket was from VCS

If they get upset, by all means let them know who the driver was, then continue not paying them. I’m not advocating selfish parking, but these tickets are utterly OTT. There is zero chance of a successful appeal (even with POPLA).

All this on the assumption it’s a private ticket

Let me put it another way; If you put something back on the wrong shelf in the supermarket and they demanded £40, would you pay them? If you signed in the wrong box when a parcel gets delivered, and they demanded £40, would you pay them? If you stayed in a pub a minute after drinking up time and they took objection and demanded £40, would you pay them?

Private companies can’t just decide to “fine” you. No but they can charge you a different rate for paying upfront / in advance or for using a service within reason and change much more for taking the piss.

No but they can charge you a different rate for paying upfront / in advance or for using a service within reason and change much more for taking the piss.

No they can’t. It’s all based in contract law. You are working on the basis of breach of contract, With a breach of contract you can only recover actual losses, you can’t go around making up figures that change in a time frame

Very few private parking companies will go as far as court, those that do more often than not don’ t turn up to trail, there are very few cases where ppc’s win. It’s normally because the defendant tries something clever or pisses off the judge.

You shouldn’t park where the hell you feel , you should pay as and when required, and you should pay the right amount but as it stands if you get a parking ticket from a ppc you DO NOT have to pay it.

Go and have a look at he ppc’s section on pepipoo, here are guys on there who really do know what they are talking about

I think Pay and Display is a stupid system. If you go into a shop, they don’t asked you to guess how much you are going to spend and hand over the money first, and fine you if you guessed wrongly. And yes, I was stung a few years back.

MartynS of course they can, think about it for a minute. Many goods and services are provided at different rates depending on the time of payment.

You can’t make up the charge retrospectively, nor could the charge be unfair, but its not a charge for breach of contract its a charge for parking without prepaying for a ticket.

There is a load of misinformation around on the net, based on the fact that (1) the PPCs have lost several cases (and so now have a much better understanding of the law); (2) prior to October 2012 there was usually no way to prove a contract with the keeper (as opposed to the driver) – but the legislation changed and the keeper is now liable anyway; (3) some punitive charges have been dismissed as unfair contract terms etc; again a smart PPC will have amended its policies/terms/wording in light of the case law.

Will the guys os Pepipoo underwrite any claim you might be exposed to? Are they qualified to give legal advice?

Will a Parking Charge Notice ever be followed up on all the way to court? Quite possibly not, but some are. Will you win in court without legal representation? Possibly, but the best advice of “prove you had a contract with ME” no longer applies since Oct 2011 and many of the Internet experts have still to catch up.

In the meantime anyone convinced that they are not liable should read

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

I would be than happy to move to the point where said PPC sends a debt collection agent ,moves it from being dubious contract law to a whole other area honestly their **** they no their **** but will continue

might send the director of a PPC a PCN for parking somewhere doesn’t matter as long as he\she is the registered keeper, will be interesting to see what happened when they try to wriggle out of that

Whilst a bit different even under PACE there have been cases where on long journeys the driver couldn’t be identified for speeding offences ie where a shared duty of driving, court has to throw out a criminal prosecution,? i believe there is case law ,might be worth a punt if a judge cant prosecute a speeder im pretty confident they couldn’t prosecute for losses if you weren’t even driving the car

someone is just going to have to have the balls (cash money) to take it all the way to supreme court

Poly, you sound like you run a PPC.

@poly

Are you qualified to give legal advice?. As what you are trying to imply goes against the qualified legal advice I was given.

Poly, you sound like you run a PPC.

no, sadly I’m not that well off! I’m just concerned that there is a lot of misinformation still floating around from before the law changed in October and someone is going to listen to what they ‘want’ to hear on the internet and then end up in court with a hefty bill for ignoring parking charges because of some ropey ‘legal advice’ from some guy on the internet.

However I believe that PPC’s have to pay for each appeal that goes to the POPLA, so rather than ignore there is an argument that if you really want to piss off the PPC then appeal it (firstly to the PPC). If their internal appeal is unsuccessful then its going to cost them £27+vat to process. You aren’t then bound to its decision (although the PPC is).

Poly,

nor could the charge be unfair, but its not a charge for breach of contract its a charge for parking without prepaying for a ticket.

And this is the point. The charge is deemed to be unfair, and therefor legally unenforcable.

As stated below this whole thing IS based in contract law so the charges ARE for breaches of contract and therefor charges of £40, £60, £120 or whatever it is are not a fair representation of the losses incurred.

Have a look through this below, its fairly comprehensive

1) Ignore all communications (other than in the extremely unlikely event that you receive genuine court papers – there were only 49 cases going to court last year out of over one million tickets issued); or

2) In England and Wales only, and if the PPC is a member of the British Parking Association’s Approved Operator Scheme (BPA AOS), appeal to the PPC using any of the applicable grounds below and then appeal to the independent Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) service (see below for further details). If the appeal is unsuccessful then ignore subsequent correspondence from the PPC.

How Do You Know if Your Ticket is a PPC Ticket or Not?

Legitimate Council tickets will be called a “Penalty Charge Notice” or “Excess Charge Notice” and will have the Council’s address on them.
A police ticket will be called a “Fixed Penalty Notice” and have either a police or HM Courts Service address on it.
It’s possible for parking tickets at some airports, train stations, ports and other locations to be issued under Byelaws, which would be enforced through the Magistrates Courts. However this is very unusual, and the vast majority of parking tickets that mention Byelaws are actually issued by PPCs relying on contract law. If you receive one of these tickets it’s best to start your own thread and post the details, so that you can be sure what kind of ticket you’re dealing with.

If it’s not called one of the above and it’s got a private address on it then the chances are that it’s a PPC “ticket”. Note that the “tickets” we’re talking about here are those that attempt to penalise you for some supposed breach of the parking terms and conditions (often asking for £50 or more), not genuine parking charges that you’ve agreed to (maybe for something like 60p/hour).

Legal Enforceability of Private Parking Tickets

There is a great deal of doubt about the legal enforceability of private parking invoices that are issued to motorists. Unlike parking tickets issued by local authorities, which are backed by statute, the enforcement of private parking is essentially a matter of contract law. A private parking company needs to overcome many significant legal hurdles in order to be successful, which include:

Establishing that any claim is under the law of contract, rather than the tort of trespass (see case of Excel Parking Services v Alan Matthews, Wrexham County Court, May 2009 where the parking company lost on this ground);
Establishing that the parking company has sufficient interest in the land to bring a claim (see case of VCS v. HM Revenue & Customs, Upper Tax Tribunal, a binding decision at the level of the High Court) in which it was decided that unless the PPC has a proprietary interest in the land they are not able to offer contracts for parking;
Establishing that all of the elements of a contract (offer, acceptance, consideration) are present;
Except in England and Wales, establishing who the driver was on the relevant occasion, as any contract can only be enforced against the driver, who may or may not be the registered keeper of the vehicle;
Establishing the prominence and adequacy of any warning signage, and that the driver actually saw and understood the signage (Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2]);
Establishing that the amount claimed is not an unlawful “penalty”, including that there was no attempt to “frighten and intimidate” the driver (see well reported case of Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman, Mansfield County Court, March 2008 where the parking company lost on this ground), and that charges must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss, or actual damages caused by trespass (see the Department of Transport’s guidance on the Protection of Freedoms Act);
Establishing that any contract does not fail foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act and associated regulations.

Protection of Freedoms Act (England and Wales only)

In England and Wales the Protection of Freedoms Act has introduced some changes that might affect your decision whether to simply ignore a PPC ticket. These changes apply only to parking companies that are also members of the BPA AOS scheme, and are principally:

The PPC may “invite” (not demand, nor require) the RK to provide the details of the driver at the time of the alleged transgression. If the RK doesn’t do so, or their invitation is ignored, the PPC is entitled to pursue the RK for whatever charge they are lawfully entitled to from the driver. If the RK does give the name of the driver, the PPC must solely pursue the driver. Therefore as long as the PPC goes through the correct process, relying solely on the argument that “I was not the driver” won’t help you. However that is the only change, and if the decision is to ignore then it simply means that the RK ignores rather than the driver.
There is an independent “appeals” process, operated by Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA). The grounds on which POPLA will consider an appeal look to be narrow and until the first appeals are heard we don’t know the stance it will take. However the appeal costs you nothing and costs the PPC £27+ VAT, so we would recommend that everyone who is so inclined appeals. The best grounds seem to be:
“The parking charge (ticket) exceeds the relevant amount” (if the charge is not valid it should be zero), and;
“I am not liable for the parking charge” (if the charge is an unlawful penalty, or the PPC has no interest in the land to offer a contract, etc there will be no liability)
Even if you lose at POPLA, it’s not binding on you and the PPC would still have to go to court if they wanted to pursue their claim. Note that you will have to exhaust the PPC’s own so-called “appeals” process before POPLA will consider an appeal to them.

You should be aware that the Protection of Freedoms Act doesn’t affect the legal position regarding enforceability of these tickets in any way.

Exceptions to Advice to Ignore PPC Tickets

A PPC will normally obtain the name and address of the vehicle’s Registered Keeper from DVLA, and pursue them for their ticket. In some cases where you were the driver but are not the RK, leaving the PPC to pursue the RK might be more hassle or more expensive than providing your details to the PPC, naming yourself as the driver and putting up with the junk mail yourself. For example:

You drive a Company car. Your employers may be unhappy about receiving a stream of claims from the PPC/debt collectors, and it could affect your relationship with them;
You were driving a hire car, and may incur administration charges from the hire company for dealing with the PPC letters;
The RK is a friend or relative who may find it too stressful to receive the threatening PPC letters (particularly since they won’t have the same level of understanding as you do now!).

In these circumstances you might wish to write to the PPC telling them that you were the driver, and then carry on ignoring them after that.

So Poly, are you legally qualified or not.

piemonster – Member

@poly

Are you qualified to give legal advice?. As what you are trying to imply goes against the qualified legal advice I was given. No, I’m a punter on the net who has bothered to read the the legislation – I’m not giving anyone legal advice I am warning them against taking advice from the net without doing their own diligence to ensure they understand what they are doing. Nobody will give you professional legal advice without seeing the exact details of your case; the problem is that the next guy comes along with a case that ‘sounds a bit similar’ and non-professionals decide the same advice applies. To advise on the enforceability someone would need: details of the car park including all signage – visibility and wording; details of the notice given to driver / sent to keeper etc. times/dates etc. The assumption that all such charges are fundamentally unenforceable is flawed – some cases do get to court and do get enforced. One of the major reasons for not pursuing cases at court (ID of driver) has been removed – you can only assume more cases will go to court and they will learn even more about what they can get away with.

The assumption that all such charges are fundamentally unenforceable is flawed

no it isn’t..

some cases do get to court and do get enforced.

49 in over a million tickets…

Poly, If I got a ticket from a PPC I’d be happy to ignore it based on the research I’ve done.
If you get one by all means pay it, but you would have been basically conned

Oh, we’ll. in that case I’ll continue to ignore the PPC then.

Do you really believe the major reason so few cases go to court is was down to not being able to ID the driver?

I’m a punter on the net

Is that all? On discussions about convictions for motoring offences, you’ve given the impression you have much more of a personal experience of some stage of the legal system…

Do you really believe the major reason so few cases go to court is was down to not being able to ID the driver?

I’m fairly sure the stats will show a marked rise following the ability to pursue the keeper in place of the driver. Do you not think so?

MartynS – I’m not telling YOU you have to pay I am ensuring that people gather the facts and decide for themselves:

the charges ARE for breaches of contract and therefor charges of £40, £60, £120 or whatever it is are not a fair representation of the losses incurred.

only the court can decide what is an unfair contract term. £40 certainly might not be unreasonable in some circumstances – bearing in mind that the correct charge could easily be £10/day, + £2.50 for getting your details from DVLA + £1.45 for each recorded delivery letter + reasonable admin costs. I’d also include the cost of the ‘warden’ which is only required for those who don’t follow the ‘rules’. If my car park was full of ‘overstayers’ stopping shoppers getting in I’d be adding that on too! Is my local airport unreasonable for charging its short stay car park on a rapidly escalating scale? No its ensuring the provision is available to all and the fees are clearly displayed (and a long stay car park is available). A term is not unfair just because it is expensive.

Even the so called ‘experts’ aren’t unequivocal that these charges are illegal:

There is a great deal of doubt about the legal enforceability of private parking invoices that are issued to motorists

In England and Wales the Protection of Freedoms Act has introduced some changes that might affect your decision whether to simply ignore a PPC ticket.

A private parking company needs to overcome many significant legal hurdles in order to be successful

Too many holes and bias with that last post to take that seriously

Too many holes and bias with that last post to take that seriously

take what seriously? His point that believing some blokes on the Internet who don’t know the details of you ppc case and following their advice is not a great idea?

And you seem to misunderstand who can legally request a penalty/fine is paid, and under what conditions.

ok penalty/fine/invoice/notice/punishment charges whatever you want to call them, fact is they aren’t intended to get you to pay what you should have paid first time round, they are there to dissuade you from cheating the system. If you walk out of the offy having “forgotten” to pay for your bottle of niche peat whiskey does oddbins say “oh sorry sir im going to have to ask you to come back and pay the £43.27” or do they call the cops and get you done for shoplifting and a heavy police/court enforced fine?. At the airport If your suitcase is 1kg over weight do they charge you pro rata for the extra kilo or do they get you to empty either your case or your wallet? Trying to get everyone to pay up when they should by having consequences for freeloaders. Various companies spank you for over using a service (which over staying your parking spot is comparable to) they’ve just not got their shit together at the moment legally, might happen might not but i reckon there’ll be repercussions, either parking charges/fines/notices will be enforceable or the amount of parking spaces will reduce and they’ll use the land for something else that will earn them money.

Poly, just out of interest. What do you do for a living ?

Is it anything to do with the subject being discussed.

… does anyone in this thread have any personal experience of getting a privately issued parking fine and getting away with not paying or conversley being forced to pay.

I was clamped once in the bad old days, and had to cough up £100 to get released, now that is just like being mugged.

Yep, GF got one, they sent one letter which we ignored and that was it. 8) (before oct rule changes)

BPA list of Approved Operators.

… does anyone in this thread have any personal experience of getting a privately issued parking fine and getting away with not paying or conversley being forced to pay.

Yes I’ve had 2

One from motorway services a couple of years ago. I was coming down with flu driving back from Germany, and slept in the back of the van for the night. The invoice was for £100, Got a few letters which I ignored and then they stopped.

Another in Leeds recently when I was 15 minutes over the ticket. The invoice was for £90. I ignored the letters and they stopped after a while.

Thank goodness clamping is done with

Ticketed in Sheffield, arrived at a friends house after driving them back from a night out. They plonked a permit in the car for that day, but chucked the wrong date on it.

I know a couple of folk in Sheffield who have also ignored them. And as I’ve mentioned before, I ended up getting legal advice which was to ignore. And not from the Internet.

Had privately issued ‘fine’.
Looked at pepipoo, totally ignored.
Nothing heard for several months.
Don’t let them bully you.

Is that all? On discussions about convictions for motoring offences, you’ve given the impression you have much more of a personal experience of some stage of the legal system…

the two are not mutually exclusive. Only solicitors and advocates give professional legal advice.

nealglover – Member
Poly, just out of interest. What do you do for a living ?

Is it anything to do with the subject being discussed.Absolutely nothing to do with parking. Closest I’ve come is leaving a note on someone’s window for parking in front of the “24 HOUR ACCESS REQUIRED” doors at a former employer.

If it’s a private parking invoice then you don’t have to do anything.
Check on pepipoo forum if in doubt.

the two are not mutually exclusive.

Some part of the legal system = not a punter

fact is they aren’t intended to get you to pay what you should have paid first time round, they are there to dissuade you from cheating the system

… and if they’re doing that (and some surely are), it’s illegal. They’re simply not empowered to administer corrective punishment in that manner, the only thing they can do is recoup losses.

If you walk out of the offy having “forgotten” to pay for your bottle of niche peat whiskey does oddbins say “oh sorry sir im going to have to ask you to come back and pay the £43.27” or do they call the cops and get you done for shoplifting and a heavy police/court enforced fine?.

Apples and oranges; the police are empowered to issue FPNs / start prosecution proceedings.

Apples and oranges; the police are empowered to issue FPNs / start prosecution proceedings.

yeah I thought someone might pull me up on that, I was trying to emphasise the dissuasion part, it’s a fair cop.

Thing is BT run a broadband service, I pay for the 10gb tariff if I download 12gb I don’t pay 20% extra on my next bill I get some penalty payment added (£5 per gb iirc). Now car parks are running a car park business you buy time slots on their land if you don’t pay enough (or at all) they cant do anything about it, how does that work? Some town centre retail parks would make great parking for nearby office workers, town centre parking is pricey, what’s to stop all the local workers filling up the car park?

Now I’m all for consumers being protected from dubious firms slapping “FPN”s on random cars but how do real car parks protect their business? Or retail businesses protect their customer parking which many people insist is a massive influence on business?

what’s to stop all the local workers filling up the car park?

Unenforceable threats, mostly.

Thing is BT run a broadband service, I pay for the 10gb tariff if I download 12gb I don’t pay 20% extra on my next bill I get some penalty payment added (£5 per gb iirc). Now car parks are running a car park business you buy time slots on their land if you don’t pay enough (or at all) they cant do anything about it, how does that work?

You have signed a contract with your broadband supplier.
That details that the price you pay for the 1st 10GB is £x (or free maybe?)
And the price for every other GB is £5.
That’s the price. It’s not a Fine or a Punishment. It’s just the price.

When I went 15 minutes over at the Carpark in Leeds, they wanted £90
The standard price is £1/hour.

How does that work ?

What Neal said.

If these companies don’t want to be treated with utter contempt. They should stop behaving like ******* pirates

They could start by not trying to charge people for parking exactly where they are supposed to park, that’d be nice.

I struggle with long sentences, but has anyone decided if the OP actually did wrong or not?

I probably did wrong in their eyes by over running on the ticket, I just feel the charge is OTT and a bit dubious the way they try to make the paperwork look and sound like a penalty fine to intimidate you. I felt the signage was confusing too by saying 1/2 hour free then pay for longer but then I was stupid/naive not to look at the expiry time for the ‘hour’ I bought. The paid for hour apparently includes the first ‘free’ half hour. I didn’t think I was depriving them of a huge amount of income by being delayed shopping in the shops the car park is there for, as there was plenty of free spaces for potential parkers. If I go again, I will take the advice posted here and use the Ikea car park where you can get your parking re-imbursed. Hindsight etc…

In their eyes, but not in yours? You think you should be let off breaking the rules?

Not trying to troll here, just curious about your and other people’s attitudes.