Osbourne says no to currency union.

kjcc25 – Member
…So because I don’t want independence you decide Scotland isn’t my country.

The decision was in your hands. Do you live here?

saving face for both sides

What ‘face’ will the UK need to save? After all it will be an independent Scotland that wants a CU. The UK will handover assets to Scotland, and the debts, but Scotland will not get a CU. The Yes voters need to realise this, this is not a threat, just a statement. The UK does not want to be responsible for any countries finance system or be responsible for setting their tax policy. Those two are part of a CU.

If Scotland chooses to go, it is not for Scotland to tell the UK what is best for the UK. That is for the UK to choose – and that will include no CU, or variations of a CU. If Salmond wants to throw his toys out of the pram and refuse to accept Scotlands share of the national debt, then fine. The UK will accept that. As such Scotland will have no debt (at least for the first day) but it will have less assets.

Will an independent Scotland allow an independence vote to the people of Shetland and Orkney?

If they want to organise a referendum campaign and hold one I don’t see why not.

Oh and if they vote to be independent from Scotland will they be able to take their oil with them?

Probably not – under international maritime law they’d be enclaves, and only entitled to the standard 12-mile limit from their shores. Of course since there are significant oil facilities they could levy taxes that way, but they wouldn’t have a right to the oil itself.

KJcc25 Rights cannot be given or taken away a person has rights by being born.A person can be prevented from exercising their rights. Your rights have not been affected in any way nor since you correctly say

Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland are countries

are you being prevented from exercising your right to vote.

There are two problems with that enclave theory though (which seems to have popped up recently in the nationalist dialogue)

i) That jurisprudence on the issue points away from the ’12 mile’ boundary towards a negotiated solution taking into account a fair share of resources (oops, we’ve heard that before haven’t we 😆 )

ii) That the Shetlands were given full effect in the drawing of the existing maritime boundaries, (ie, the boundary was drawn halfway between the Shetlands and Norway, not halfway between the Scottish Mainland and Norway) if Scotland lost the Shetlands&/or Orkneys then the maritime borders between Scotland and Norway would have to be redrawn – and Scotland would lose most of its oil 😆

and Scotland would lose most of its oil

Haven’t we established though that there’s precious little oil left, that it’s all running out, and it’s not enough to run even a small country like Scotland?

Probably more oil in the olive groves of a small greek town than there is the North Sea, so it’s all academic, right?

EDIT: is there an irony emoticon?

Funny how the only people seemingly wanting independence for Shetland are people who either can’t vote or want to stay with the UK? Funny that.

Article in the Independent sums it up

ninfan – Member
There are two problems with that enclave theory though (which seems to have popped up recently in the nationalist dialogue)

i) That jurisprudence on the issue points away from the ’12 mile’ boundary towards a negotiated solution taking into account a fair share of resources (oops, we’ve heard that before haven’t we )

ii) That the Shetlands were given full effect in the drawing of the existing maritime boundaries, (ie, the boundary was drawn halfway between the Shetlands and Norway, not halfway between the Scottish Mainland and Norway) if Scotland lost the Shetlands&/or Orkneys then the maritime borders between Scotland and Norway would have to be redrawn – and Scotland would lose most of its oil

iii) I doubt very much Scotland would be daft enough to allow Shetland & Orkney to have a legally binding referedum.

But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.

The UK is a collection of countries in a Union.

Northern Ireland is not a country. E, S and W are countries only in a very nominal way, and none of them is a state. The UK is the only state and real country.

konabunny – Member
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.

It’s got nothing to with fairness. See the Basque country, see Catalonia, see the Venetian referendum.

It does have everything to do with if a region can put enough pressure on their country to allow a legally binding referendum. Or have enough about them to go to war over it.

Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?

futon river crossing – Member
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?

Personally i hope not. Sterlingisation in the short term, then allowing the people to decide where we go from there in elections, works for me.

Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?

Could go either way tbh. I wouldn’t be surprised with either outcome.

futon river crossing – Member
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?

I don’t care.

We will still have money, and probably continue to use the £, but with the benefit that there will be more fiscal responsibility (as the Panamanians, IoM, etc have shown).

If we go into the EU then we can use the Euro. It’s just money, which brand is not a problem.

I reckon the Oz dollar would be good, but I’m not prejudiced or anything… 🙂

edit: can’t be bothered

epicyclo – Member
Article in the Independent sums it up

The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands “political elite “

EDIT: @epic everything I see and read (not least this currency doscussion and the fact Scotland does not propose to have a central bank of any kind) leads me to believe Scotland will be materially less fiscally responsible and will run a very large budget deficit

konabunny – Member
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.

That’s a good point.

After independence, there will be more power devolved to the islands of Scotland so that they derive more benefit from the resources in their area.

If Edinburgh becomes a black hole like London, and ignores the needs or desires of the islands, then the island communities should seek independence.

Scotland’s finance minister says no “currency, no debt” (apologies of this has been posted before).

BBC – Swinney

I say no debt, no independence.

Salmond might, but that is part of the gamble..might, should, could rather than anything definite!

If left to any of his minions then it will become a disaster in the same way as a lot of other links currently being worked between Scot/Eng that the person on the street has no knowledge of!!

The new Forth bridge is supposedly ontime & on budget unlike Holyrood and the trams. Police Scotland is a mess as is the new education policy, all will be sorted eventually but a lot more could and should have been done. There are a whole raft of day to day issues being ignored and masked by the oil and currency issues.
Regardless of which government we have in place it is down to the civil service to work out the detail. They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways…… 🙄

jambalaya – Member
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands “political elite “

Well, seeing as the Yes campaign consists of around 50% of Scots, that’s a lot more equitable than the current situation.

These “fairer” discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)

Trekster – Member
…They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways……

True, I’m sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.

But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.

jambalaya – Member
These “fairer” discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)

Ridiculous, isn’t it? So tell us why some rich Scots are not living in the Uk? Who decided that tax policy?

Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

True, I’m sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.

But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.

don’t remember seeing that on a Yes poster 😉

big_n_daft – Member
don’t remember seeing that on a Yes poster

No, it’s all got to look like roses, but we know there’s a few thistles in there.

We also know you can get rid of thistles and plant roses if it’s your own land. Just takes time. 🙂

jambalaya – Member
These “fairer” discussions are quite amusing,

tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It’ll be a waste of time.

Independence is only the beginning of a fight.

Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

Yes, that’s how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041

Great start!

It’s not our debt, the Treasury says so.

Sheesh – look, these are all negotiating positions. No currency union, not taking the debt, they’re all posturing before the referendum. After the referendum it’ll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups.

teamhurtmore – Member
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?
Yes, that’s how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

Is your head not in a spin yet? You’ve gone in circles that many times you should be dizzy.

seosamh77 – Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It’ll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.

I agree.

Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.

I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal – being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.

There’s a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party – in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.

In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.

Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.

Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.

futon river crossing – Member
Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041

Great start!Scotland wouldn’t be defaulting, rUK would still be servicing the debt. Under those circumstances there is no default as far as the markets are concerned.

To say there would be is just utter bull.

If there’s a default it’ll be rUK that will be defaulting.

If it’s not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? “Listen here, we’re not going to pay the debt, that isn’t ours anyway, take that”!!!

epicyclo – Member
seosamh77 – Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It’ll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.
I agree.

Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.

I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal – being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.

There’s a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party – in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.

In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.

Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.

Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.Fair assessment. Particularly the scots tories, I agree that, they are a worry.

futon river crossing – Member
If it’s not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? “Listen here, we’re not going to pay the debt, that isn’t ours anyway, take that”!!!

We are willing to take a share.

To be honest I don’t think the no debt thing is a negotiating position on a CU at all, it’s just a general overall negotiating position that will be used to gain a share of the assets.

I think the CU position is just public facing politics.

teamhurtmore – Member
‘Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?’
Yes, that’s how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

[/quote]

So all the countries in the EU have the same tax regime do they?

After the referendum it’ll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups

Firstly I wouldn’t assume that the grown ups will have a sensible conversation. Any discussions will make the recent head-2-head discussions look like a quiet chat in the park. Secondly any agreement would need to be ratified by the UK Parliament – and I can already hear the braying from the back benches. I won’t comment on the Scottish Parliament – but I will take a wild guess that it won’t be much better!

Scottish Labour had to come out as No, firstly because that’s whats best for the whole of the UK (and Scotland IMO), secondly because a Yes vote does weaken Labour nationally. Scots voters must understand this so to “finish” the party there for that is a bit short sighted.

I posted before I could see Scotland moving to the right post independence, in the past anti Tory (right) was anti-English/Westminster / pro-independence. If Scotland becomes independent people will be able to vote freely left/centre/right without the anti-English/Westminster factor influencing their vote. The results could surprise many.

The Scottish man in the street view:

As far as the CU is concerned, the Bank of England is the UK govt bank paid for by the citizens of all the countries of the UK.

Scotland is entitled to its share of the bank its taxes have paid for. The BoE issues the currency, ie the £. If we are not getting a share of the joint account, then why should we pay its debts?

Whether that is technically correct, I have no idea, but it is a common perception.

Anyhow, the sun is shining, off for a ride… 🙂

jambalaya – Member
The results could surprise many.

It is a danger. Yes.