Got a hardtail itch I need to scratch and been looking around for a frame for a while and just saw one of these at £799 they seem pretty good value for a ti frame but would I be better off with something else?

£800 is more than I want to spend but I don’t want but something cheap and poop either.

ideal world frame will have a 30.9 seat tube for the Reverb which is what has put me off a Stanton Slackline which was previous No 1 choice.

Cheers guys, I look forward to the impartial advice!

If you are heavish I’d recommend the C456. Some complain its too harsh- if you are 15stone+ (I find) it very compliant/comfy.

If its not long travel- Sanderson Life simply rules.

4 years on mine so far, fantastic piece of kit – and by carbon (and alloy FS) standards, cheap.

Yeah, not thought of the carbon one but I am 14 stone so does that class as heavy enough do you think?

£800 is cheap for a Ti frame but that’s not to say it’s poor quality. The new Ti456s are made by Van Nicolas in their Chinese factory whereas before they were made by Lynskey in the US. That’s why they can now sell them for £800.

They are a bit of a design classic and the original Lynskey one I owned (albeit briefly) was lovely. But then so were the Cotic Soul and the Dialed Alpine I also owned (for a similar length of time).

The best hard tail I’ve ever owned, and the one I should never have got rid of, was the Ragley Ti. That was an amazing bike; stiff where you needed it, compliant elsewhere with excellent geometry for really aggressive riding.

The Soul though is/was a close second and is probably the closest thing to the Ti456 in terms of character without being designed to take a 160mm fork. If you want the longer fork then the BFe is identical to the Soul in terms of geometry but can take the 160mm fork. The Soul is a lovely bike rewarding precision and finesse with a fabulous ride quality. I haven’t ridden a BFe but I imagine it will handle like a Soul but reward a more direct, manhandling style of riding.

The Dialed Alpine was also a hoot. There is a new one coming though so best to wait for that as the original has the same limitations you’ve identified with the Stanton Slackline.

One other bike to consider though is the Slackline Ti, which will have a 44mm headtube and 30.9mm seat tube, but you’re going to spend a lot more than £800!

Ti Slackline would be amazing, but looking at £1500 I guess which is bit steep. I think maybe a Cotic Soul might be better for my bank balance, are they really as awesome as everyone says? I’ll be looking at running 120-140mm forks BTW.

Ti Slackline would be amazing, but looking at £1500 I guess which is bit steep

It is; I thought they might be less than that, maybe £1200 but that’s still a big chunk of change.

Soul might be better for my bank balance, are they really as awesome as everyone says?

I guess that depends on what you’re expecting of it (and saying it’s awesome) don’t ask a lot of them but even so I know a few people that ride pretty hard and are extremely capable say they still love them to bits.

From my own personal experience, I think they are every bit as good as people say. I tend to ride quite aggressively and I do ask quite a bit of my bikes and am heavy and I loved mine. It’s a very sweet handling bike that works excellently with 140mm forks as well as 100mm forks although probably in a very different way.

I found the Soul stuttery-jittery as you pedalled along. Maybeit was tyre pressures or seatpost?

At any pressure etc on my c456 no saddle ‘constant kick’

The new 456 EVO Ti is very temping. There is a thread on here where Brant (the designer) mentions it being similar to the Ragley Ti he also designed, but with a 5mm lower bottom bracket. I’ve ridden a Ragley Ti but it was set up for a taller rider so did not feel great for me. My smaller Ragley Mmmbop I currently run has the same geometry as a Ragely Ti and is my current favouritest ever hardtail… I would probably buy the 456 EVO Ti if I could run my 1.5″ steerer forks and 31.6mm Reverb 👿

The Carbon 456 has older geometry which does not interest me.

The Carbon 456 has older geometry which does not interest me

I don’t ‘understand’ the need for slackening a hardtail- it really doesn’t make sense. A slacker full sus yes but a slacker hardtail goes against the whole idea of whippiness of a hardtail. It should feel more responsive.

Maybeit was tyre pressures or seatpost?

Maybe it was the wrong size?

I don’t ‘understand’ the need for slackening a hardtail

I understand where you’re coming from and I’ve heard that from other hardtail builders, like Curtis who reckon a 71 degree head angle is perfect.

But having ridden the Ragley Ti extensively, it does work really well.

Messiah what part of the Ti456 isn’t compatible? I thought you could run 1.5″ forks.

I had a 18″ Summer season- couldn’t stand its steering, had a regular 456 and found it spot on compared. I guess its down to personal choice. I like riding over the front/through stuff stood over the bars on my c456 🙂 The back just seems to hover over stuff 8)

I’d throw Cove Hummer and Brodie Holeshot Ti into the pot as well.

Avoid anything made by Lynskey – that’s the path to misery and madness.

I had a 18″ Summer season- couldn’t stand its steering

But what length fork did you run, as it was designed for 100mm.

Avoid anything made by Lynskey – that’s the path to misery and madness.

Personal experience?

Personal experience?

Yes.

<shudders>

Hora – the older geometry 456 (and C456) work best at the 4&5″ end of the fork length as when you shove on a 6″ fork the bottom bracket gets too high and seat angle gets too slack (IMHO/IMHE etc etc). The EVO geometry fixes this by lowering the bottom bracket and steepening the seat angle. I like long forks on a hardtail and my Troof with 160mm forks and 64deg head angle was ace until it cracked!

geetee – I probably could run my 1.5 steerers by mixing headsets with a Nukeproof 44×1.5″ top, or running a 44×1.5 CK/Hope bottom cap upside down up top… swapping one of my Reverbs for a 30.9 would be possible… it’s tempting 🙄

I had a noodly/flexy ti456- didn’t they snap at the back – probably due to flexing soo much?

I have a lovely 18″ Ragley Ti ready to go 😉 Email me if you are interested.

swayndo – emailed!

I had a noodly/flexy ti456- didn’t they snap at the back – probably due to flexing soo much?

Or fat people running 200mm rear discs on a bleeding hardtail!

I understand where you’re coming from and I’ve heard that from other hardtail builders, like Curtis who reckon a 71 degree head angle is perfect.

Depends what you are doing I guess and where it’s sat in the suspension at that measurement.
But no.

Whereas my lynskey built ti456 was brilliant and still in one piece.

It is however for potential sale….

I had a Ragley Ti, it was OK, but when I bought a Cotic 29er, I just never used it. I think it may be a frame size issue, I had a brief ride on an 18″ Ti and it was more compliant than my 20″.

I’ll tell you in a couple of weeks. O-O confirmed dispatch of my new 456 Ti Evo but will take 16 days to arrive in Hong Kong. It will be an entirely new build. Very excited.

pretty sure the C456 can be converted to evo geometry by just using an angle change headset. Might restrict you to straight steerer forks though.

Why is Brant obsessed with slackening hardtails? Market forces at the expense of quick n nimble steering and feel? Hardtails shouldnt be slack.

Flame me but who cares. The original Chameleon still has amazing geometry and the medium Chameleon the best steering hardtail ever. I never felt out of my depth on one.

Slack hardtails are for people seeking answers to a question never asked.

If a hardtail frame needs slackening its design numbers are all wrong.

Is it possible that he knows what he’s doing ?

Or hora, its a personal choice…..?

My Nicolai Helius AC 29er fs has a 72 deg ha on 120mm forks.

My fireline has a slack 67.5 deg ha………..!

Using your thinking Mugboo- others dont then?

Why is Brant obsessed with slackening hardtails? Market forces at the expense of quick n nimble steering and feel? Hardtails shouldnt be slack.

Flame me but who cares. The original Chameleon still has amazing geometry and the medium Chameleon the best steering hardtail ever. I never felt out of my depth on one.

Slack hardtails are for people seeking answers to a question never asked.

If a hardtail frame needs slackening its design numbers are all wrong.

Hora

Unfortunately based on your frame/bike history I automatically take no notice of any like/dislike you post 🙄

If you actually just kept a bike and rode it, maybe.

Across the guys I ride with (once/twice a week in the Scottish Borders) we have 456, BFe, Soulx2, Alpine plus a Cube FS, Carrera HT and Lapierre FS. Notice what the majority are?

Scottish borders? Im confused. Whats the point to your geography and a list of bikes?

Every bike that Ive owned I ride. Like anyone else. Like your good self Im no Steve Peat but I know a good hardtail isnt fashion-slack.

Truth it’s a personal preference thing. Just pointing out the Brants designs are generally well recieved although they are also designed for fun rather than xc.

I had a Lynskey made Ti456. Don’t bother.

Mugboo I disagree. I hated my ti456. Haymarket magazines loved it. They also hated the c456 (not the same designer is it)

It’s Future not Haymarket, Mark.
Slack? Are you suggesting that at ride height a 150mm forked bike should have the same head angle as a short travel or rigid bike? What happens under compression?

Every bike that Ive owned I ride. Like anyone else. Like your good self Im no Steve Peat but I know a good hardtail isnt fashion-slack.

I suppose if you potter about rather than try and session things and have fun then maybe “not slack” is ok.
And I guess we are talking about mountain bike hardtails here. As we have production and sample models with slack head angles and long fork rakes. Anyhow.

It’s not fashion, it’s a style.

Hora, I don’t know if you’re any good at riding bikes but, having read your writings for the past few years, you definitely aren’t any good at thinking about bikes! 😛

Hora, I don’t know if you’re any good at riding bikes but, having read your writings for the past few years, you definitely aren’t any good at thinking about bikes!

And certainly crap at buying/selling/keeping 🙄

I’ve had steeper HA HT’s in the past and while I got on well with some of them I do really like my current 456ss with a 4″ fork far more than a lot of my previous bikes. Steeper HA I did find suits Dirt jumping a bit better but if you want an all rounder/trail type HT I think a more relaxed stable HA makes sense when you’re out riding..

As for the 456ti? I think I’d still struggle to see past the C456, half the price and a slack set to tweak the HA if you like. £800 is still a lot of money for a HT frame in many peoples book and I can’t help question if it would actually be twice as good as a C456.

Or of having spanked such a sum you’d just keep telling yourself it was worth it to avoid realizing that you have really just been swayed by the shinyness.

I have Jimw old ragley Ti and its awesome, don’t tell him but I have ringing its neck!
It really pushes on if you want it to, I do. I think it better than the old to 456 I also owned.

All that said I have had a fair few of brants bikes, I like his work. Brant want sell me a el gaupo with ccdb with a free headset??!!