the paradox is, that although full maturity as a human being cannot possibly be achieved until you have experienced the unfathomable infinite responsibility of parenthood, you’re probably emotionally better off revelling in blissful ignorance

Have you seen Benefits Street on the telly?

So darcy – you seem to reckon I’m being over-sensitive or trolling or anti-children or something and get quite upset by these kinds of viewpoints, but you’re fine with this stuff cos they’re ‘on your side’?

I think you need to have a pretty good reason not to even try.

the paradox is, that although full maturity as a human being cannot possibly be achieved until you have experienced the unfathomable infinite responsibility of parenthood

😆

Yeah you seem totes mature yunki – I can only imagine what you were like before having children! 🙂

I’m 37, wife is 34. Zero kids and that will never change. It always makes me chuckle that those with kids will happily tell the childless that they’re making a mistake, but if I told a parent they made a mistake by having a child I’d be considered a horrible person.

Have them or don’t. Its a personal choice either way that should never be swayed by the opinions of others or some misguided sense of what society expects.

So darcy – you seem to reckon I’m being over-sensitive or trolling or anti-children or something

Yep, I do. I also think you’re not great at taking what you dish out, at least not on these threads anyway.

Yeah you seem totes mature yunki

Your mum seems totes mature.. and your bum smells of poo

I’m forty-one and have never really wanted kids…my missus is a couple of years older (not being specific as she frequents these pages) and had twins from her previous relationship.

The boys are now seventeen, I love them both to bits and I wouldn’t want to suddenly dump a little brother or sister on them now.

I’ve always taken the view that there are plenty of unwanted kids out there who don’t have a home. I’ve always been open to the idea of adoption or fostering.

Yes, relationships have failed in the past because I feel the way I do, but I can honestly look back with no regrets.

Yep, I do. I also think you’re not great at taking what you dish out, at least not on these threads anyway.

Maybes – I confess to some mild trolling but I reckon you’re being a bit over-sensitive (like most parents 😛 ). And I reckon you are a bit oblivious to some of the dickishness that gets directed towards non-parents (just as I probably am the other way round).

I’ve always taken the view that there are plenty of unwanted kids out there who don’t have a home. I’ve always been open to the idea of adoption or fostering.

Yeah I reckon it’s a really admirable thing to do and if I was to have kids would probably lean towards going down that route. Though possibly I shouldn’t be allowed near children with my extreme pedophobia.

Your mum seems totes mature.. and your bum smells of poo

Good point, well made. 🙂

…a bit over-sensitive

Honestly, I have no words, just 😆

And I reckon you are a bit oblivious to some of the dickishness…

I dunno mate, I’m losing you now…you seem intent on trying to paint me into some kind of corner, based on heavens knows what. A while back you were talking about someone being on my “side”. I have no “side”. I like people to be happy with their choices and not to make sweeping generalisations about the choices of others. As I said earlier, I don’t proscribe any course of action.

If you don’t like this kind of stuff being pointed out to you, just let us know or ask STW for a “Can Give. Can’t take.” tag after your username so we know to treat you with kid gloves. Otherwise, if you’re going to dish it out, then be prepared to take it back without being a pussy about it. I’m not thing to troll anyone just give my point of view from within my frame of reference, in the forlorn hope that it might prick some little bit of empathy into life. (I realise we’re on STW and empathy is in short supply sometimes though.)

Wow.

What i’m pointing out is that you’re being a hypocrite about it. You see it as fine for people to be dicks/patronise/demean/troll non-parents without commenting on it, but when I do it a little bit the other way round (and admit it) it’s totally not ok? And if I point out the hypocrisy I’m being a ‘pussy’?

Yeah I reckon that’s taking sides and being over-sensitive.

What was the quote ‘the Internet: pick a side, be a dick about it’? 🙂

If we’re talking about empathy, how about some empathy for people who’ve decided they (probably) don’t want kids basically being told repeatedly that they are wrong, and they just don’t get how wrong they are? There’s a reasonable amount of society/family expectation on most people to have kids IMO – are you saying that’s not the case?

Well this one has gone as expected, say no kids and your a parent hater/kid hater. Say kids are the answer to everything and everyone else is stupid and your fine.

It’s a personal choice, people can make that choice. I personally don’t feel I need kids to complete my life a view shared by a number of my friends.

I think you need to have a pretty good reason not to even try.

the paradox is, that although full maturity as a human being cannot possibly be achieved until you have experienced the unfathomable infinite responsibility of parenthood

Top trolling there guys.

If you pin your hopes of fulfillment as a human being on your ability to reproduce then I pity you. There is so much more to life.

My missus is stressing time is running out. I’m 34 this year she is 33 and her best mate is preggers (I’ve) while another has been knocking little ones out for fun. We will do things the way our parents did, get married first so that could take a year. She is worried time is not on her side, I would like a kid or two so I guess I’d best get a move on!

Do I worry about supporting a family? Sure I do, I’d have to give up buying overpriced expensive bikes and carbon wheels and buy a people mover (T5/6 day van but the missus does not know that yet)

say no kids and your a parent hater/kid hater

Whereas no one actually said this, did they?

What was the quote ‘the Internet: pick a side, be a dick about it’?

As I said, I don’t have a side. I have a frame of reference from within I can try to make someone see my point of view. Not agree with it, just see where I’m coming from and why I might try and challenge silly generalisations. If you have a problem with the generalisations (or trolling) of others, then challenge them. There’s no point blaming me for them or having a go at me for not challenging them for you.

Oh and…

Wow

Come on, let’s try and be grown-up about it without the silly putdownery of starting a post like this.

There’s no point blaming me for them or having a go at me for not challenging them for you.

That’s not what I was doing, I was saying it’s hypocritical to seemingly get quite upset/pissed off about it in one direction but not the other. Hence me saying you seem to have a ‘side’.

Come on, let’s try and be grown-up about it without the silly putdownery of starting a post like this.

Not meant like that. Genuinely quite shocked by how vitriolic/scornful you were towards me in that post.

And if we’re talking about silly sweeping generalisations – you used the phrase ‘STW Childhaters’ Brigade’ a way back in this thread.

deadlydarcy – Member
…if you hate kids or have that disparaging attitude towards parents and families of the usual suspects from the STW Childhaters’ Brigade (who curiously enough, seem irresistibly drawn to these threads), then you probably won’t be asking yourself if you should or shouldn’t. And that’s fair enough. It’s probably best for everyone involved, you’d probably make an arse of the job anyway.

Amazingly some people want to present views that are the other side of the discussion, sort of a balance to the whole thing. Should we mark threads as being for positive reinforcement only? You know like should I try gap jumping canyons at my age – of course you should what could possibly go wrong.

To be fair Grum, you started the attacks in this thread, as you have in other threads of this nature in the past..

And I still don’t believe that even you believe that generally people in life think you’re weird for not having kids.. Not really, not deep down in your heart.. It’s all in yer head mate..

Sorry for taking the piss, but it’s too easy.. Nominating that auld fella on the first page for **** of the thread, simply cos he offered his advice was just begging for trouble..
You’ve made yer choice, but you don’t half come across as sour about it

Hence me saying you seem to have a ‘side’.

I can’t find any more ways to explain that I don’t have a “side”. And I wasn’t being vitriolic – if you can’t take being trolled, then don’t do it in the first place. (The empathy stuff was a general point and not aimed at you in particular, if that was unclear.)

Anyway, we’re straying towards attacking tone of post and not arguing the points themselves, which is dickish and pointless. I’m hitting the sack as I have a flight to Copenhagen to catch tomorrow. First child-free long weekend for us in two and a half years. I’m looking forward to the lie-ins on Saturday and Sunday mornings. And we don’t have to upset anybody on the plane with a crying child. 😀

EDIT:

Amazingly some people want to present views that are the other side of the discussion, sort of a balance to the whole thing.

I have no problems with anybody presenting alternative points of view mike. But if they’re made in a trollish way, and make sweeping generalisations, then don’t go getting upset when they’re challenged. To be fair, I notice you have moderated your previous views to a degree when you’re irresistibly drawn to these threads and I congratulate you for that.

Right, I really must hit the sack, I’m up awfully late for a breeder.

Enjoy Copenhagen darcy (it will be so much better without kids 😛 ). Defo bedtime.

yunki – I attacked this guy because I thought he was being a proper bellend (still do).

Do it now. Start tonight. Don’t necessarily try for a baby, just stop using contraception.
Being a parent is a job for the young, at any rate not for the old.

I don’t know anyone with kids who has regretted it (except perhaps one with a handicapped child)

But at 60+ I do know a number of childless couples who get teary when drunk, about how they wish they’d had them and how they made the wrong decisions in their 30s to have “fun” instead. In the scheme of things, that “fun” pales into insignificance beside the joys & terrors of children.

And if you can’t see several instances of bellend in that post them I’m afraid you must have the pro-parenting blinkers on. I can spell it out for you if you like.

And I still don’t believe that even you believe that generally people in life think you’re weird for not having kids.. Not really, not deep down in your heart.. It’s all in yer head mate..

It’s not so much that, but it’s quite a big decision to make and yes sometimes there are doubts – but people basically telling you you’re wrong is pretty shit. I don’t tell people they’re wrong and they’ll be full of regret and that they’re missing out on fulfilling experiences for not playing in a band, not snowboarding, not DJing, not MTBing, not being a photographer, or even for doing boring jobs they hate that take over their whole life. I’ve had some amazing experiences doing those things but I wouldn’t be so presumptuous and arrogant as to assume I know what’s best and instruct others that the way I’ve chosen is not only the best way for me, but for everyone. And yet several people in this thread have done exactly that, and it’s representative of a reasonably widely held view in society.

Grum, you’d just be alpha male/club them over the head, knock them up and then run type if you were a hunter gatherer.

No need to make excuses, you’re just not the type biologically who wants to waste a lot of resources on a kid who may or may not be yours! 😆

It’s just unfortunately r-selection reproductive strategy is generally frowned upon in todays society. Don’t blame it on your upbringing though, blame it on your genes 😀 We all know why they don’t like people like you…..you might knock up their wimminz and run off to go skiing leaving them to look after all those totes amazeballz kids.

And if you can’t see several instances of bellend in that post them I’m afraid you must have the pro-parenting blinkers on. I can spell it out for you if you like.

Lulz.. no thanks mate… I think your calling someone a **** when they offer the wisdom of their experience tells me all I need to know 🙂

Nae weans. We haven’t been “trying” for children – more a case of not trying not to – for 15 years, so with myself and herself both now in our mid-late 40s it looks it’s not going to happen. We are at peace with our place in history as an evolutionary cul-de-sac, I guess.

Didn’t really fancy joining the Darwinian clamour for IVF via my local NHS, and could never afford to do it privately. In a world of finite supply and increasing demand for resources, an inability to reproduce does not strike me as an illness, as such, as something you need to be cured of. Maybe more of a blessing.

Sometimes it bothers me, sometimes it doesn’t. Being on the childless side of the fence, I veer between scoffing at parents who assume absolutely everyone will find their children as endlessly novel as they do, and being appalled by news stories about feckless, sexually incontinent parents who abuse and neglect their umpteen kids – when there are so many people who would give their eye teeth to have just one. Although I don’t consider myself to be that bothered, I have a recurring dream which features a tiny baby that I feel an overwhelming and intense sense of affection for. Then I wake up, and there is no real baby screaming to be fed and for its arse to be wiped, and I feel relieved. But the fact that I dream about something that rarely troubles me in my waking hours suggests that the lack of a mini-me is a fundamental itch that I may come to regret failing to scratch.

I’d rather not have kids then discover later that was a mistake, than have kids then decide that was a mistake!

Parenthood is taking the next step and nothing will prepare you for the incredible feelings of love and responsibility you have when it happens. It is life changing so you have to want something more. Once when discussing the subject on a mate’s stag, someone pointed out that the sooner you have your kids the more of life you share with them. I had never looked at it that way and even more ironic is the fella that said it is a bachelor and 50 next month!

I’d rather not have kids then discover later that was a mistake, than have kids then decide that was a mistake!

I guess it depends on your personally type, as some people think its better to try something and fail than to not bother at all.

Do you have a similar attitude to order things in life? If so your life must be very boring if you never take a chance.

Thinking about it apathy isn’t a good gene to pass on, so I guess people are just Darwin awarding themselves. As a world full of people who can’t be bothered and avoid anything which may cause issues at some random point in the future would be a bit of a dead end for the human race, picture the scene two cavemen, one makes fire the other one says, I don’t think I will bother with that as it could at somepoint burn down a city…. whatever that is….. 🙂

Here’s a interesting diversion for you all.

Does having kids give you more or less time to behave like a dick on the internet?

Now you might assume less, but it also ties you to being in the house looking after them (with one eye on your smartphone), so maybe it’s more?

And then when you have kids are you more or less likely to be a dick because you’ve gained a broader, less selfish world view – or more likely because you’re just really **** tired?

It’s a toughie isn’t it?

I guess it depends on your personally type, as some people think its better to try something and fail than to not bother at all.

Do you have a similar attitude to order things in life? If so your life must be very boring if you never take a chance.

We’re not talking about bungie jumping or windsurfing here. Do you honestly think it’s better to have tried and failed at raising a child/ being a parent, than choosing not to have them at all? 😆

Now you might assume less, but it also ties you to being in the house looking after them (with one eye on your smartphone), so maybe it’s more?

Why would you assume that folk with kids are ‘tied’ down, or for that matter any less likely to be ‘living their life’ than someone without?

One thing that having kids teach you is sharing, and not been selfish. For example, I’d like a new shiny car, but not this year as we’ll be buying one for my youngest instead.

We’re also building a Granny Annex for my folks (Dad is now in need of a zimmer-frame in the house and wheelchair outside), so that way they’ll be more comfortable plus nearer us for when they need help, plus somebody around for us needing stuff.

On the plus side, my son cuts the grass (1/2 acre’s-worth) and my Mum walks my dogs etc. And in case you want to know, all my kids are doing well 🙂

And then when you have kids are you more or less likely to be a dick because you’ve gained a broader, less selfish world view

so having offspring is not selfish and not having them is? some might say it’s the other way round.

One thing that having kids teach you is sharing, and not been selfish. For example, I’d like a new shiny car, but not this year as we’ll be buying one for my youngest instead.

If that were the case, most people would be lefties.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ryuJDTpEc[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgDhDa4HHo [/video]

so having offspring is not selfish and not having them is? some might say it’s the other way round.

I didn’t say not having children is selfish and I have a certain amount of sympathy for your viewpoint.

I was merely trying to point out that it’s a topic which seems to bring the worst out in a lot of people.

Why would you assume that folk with kids are ‘tied’ down, or for that matter any less likely to be ‘living their life’ than someone without?

I wouldn’t and I’m happy to have given you the opportunity to make a positive contribution to this forum for once.

One thing that having kids teach you is sharing, and not been selfish.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there. For some people it seems to just extend the sphere of their selfishness to include their kids.

Ever driven near a primary school at kicking-out time? Lots of highly selfish behaviour going on there.

Also, I learned about sharing and not being selfish already I think – If we’re gonna start listing nice things that we do in order to try and prove something, I do a reasonable amount of free work for various good charities/causes, do other work that helps out the disadvantaged and promotes community cohesion etc, do support work for a guy with special needs.

Not asking for a medal or anything – but do you reckon I would do more of that stuff or less, if I had kids? Hard to say really but I suspect less.

And doing that stuff just because you think it’s a good thing to do you could argue is more altruistic than doing it because it will help someone you see as a continuation of yourself, carrying on the family line, etc etc. 😉

It might have made you better at sharing and not being selfish but let’s not make crass sweeping generalisations or darcy will be very upset when he gets back from his holiday.

We all know why they don’t like people like you…..you might knock up their wimminz and run off to go skiing leaving them to look after all those totes amazeballz kids.

😀

In terms of using up the world’s resources as quickly as possible, having children is the ultimate in behaving selfishly.

Slightly off topic (but love the Norman Hunter versus Billy Bremner stuff) – it’s is quite extraordinary how child centric/obsessed society has become. The slippery slope was kids’ menus – the nadir was watching an old lady getting up on a train to give her seat to a small child. What is the world coming too?

Parenthood is taking the next step and nothing will prepare you for the incredible feelings of love and responsibility you have when it happens.

This for me.

I was 36 when my son was born. Always thought I’d have kids but had never really been that interested until I met his mum and realised I was getting older all the time. He had a tough start with open heart surgery at 3 months but is doing well now and is the best thing I ever did.

I think if I’d not become a dad I would have looked back and regretted it in the future.

In terms of using up the world’s resources as quickly as possible, having children is the ultimate in behaving selfishly.

But what are we saving the planet’s resources for? The planet is big enough and old enough to look after itself, environmentalism is really about making sure there’s a viable ecosystem for our descendants. It makes more sense for people with children to worry about the future of the planet.

This is all very deep, though. Kids are fun, most of the time. Though they do take over your life. Considering what usually happens to our houseplants I’m amazed we’ve managed to get this far, I’m definitely too irresponsible to have kids. But so are most parents, probably.

But what are we saving the planet’s resources for? The planet is big enough and old enough to look after itself, environmentalism is really about making sure there’s a viable ecosystem for our descendants. It makes more sense for people with children to worry about the future of the planet.

Worrying is all well and great, doesn’t change the fact that if you’re a westerner – considering current consumption rates – having one is a massive burden on the rest of the developing world.

Having children isn’t about being selfless in the UK, since the 80’s we’ve become one of the most right wing, individualistic and selfish countries within the EU. Children are an aspirational status symbol, to go with your big 4×4 and your 5 bedroom house.

I have kids because my wife and I are both are awesome, and our genes need to be preserved.

Actually.. Are there any parent/child STW combos? Anyone’s kids also post?

Having children isn’t about being selfless in the UK, since the 80’s we’ve become one of the most right wing, individualistic and selfish countries within the EU. Children are an aspirational status symbol, to go with your big 4×4 and your 5 bedroom house.

True, which is why I see it as my duty to bring up a hippy, left-wing child while spending as little money as possible – no fancy travel systems, new cars or private schools here 😉

Having kids – best thing we ever did. Trust me you won’t regret it.. I was 30 and was’nt that bothered. Wife was so we did. 25 years later they’ve left home and I miss them. Just me and the wife. Wish I’d had more than 2. Can’t wait for grand kids. Kids give meaning and purpose to your life. On the upside, post kids, I can ride whenever I want to. You know what though? I’d rather be teaching my 5 year old how to ride a bike.

I’m quite happy being totally purposeless – never needed meaning for anything. Meaning is for the weak. 😀

Meaning and purpose? Sod that – having a kid means I just spent a week’s holiday playing crazy golf, building sandcastles, poking about in rockpools and tickling in public. Try doing that kind of stuff without a child 😀