New pedal-based power meter…

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  • New pedal-based power meter…
  • Premier Icon pedalhead
    Subscriber

    Garmin have finally released details of their new power meter…

    http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2011/08/garmin-brings-power-to-the-people-with-vector-1.html

    $1500. I wonder what that’ll translate into over here. Looks promising though.

    plodtv
    Member

    Yeah I been waiting with baited breath for these, the price point was supposed to make power more affordable. I’m not sure that price (depending on how it translates over here) is. isn’t a powertap hub a lot cheaper?

    RealMan
    Member

    What is it with companies showing off fancy tech on fancy bikes with stems 2 feet in the air? At least pretend like you’re not targeting the fatties, and slam it.

    Looks pretty cool. Much easier to set up then a hub or crank set, and much easier to swap between bikes. Also won’t do speedplay any good, and doesn’t seem to expensive.

    Would be very interesting to get a power hub and those pedals, and see the difference.

    Premier Icon pedalhead
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    I like the fact it’ll give you separate readings for left & right legs. Definitely looks like a tidier solution to Powertap, and much cheaper than SRM. If it comes in under Β£1k I could be tempted, assuming the readings are proven to be reliable.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    The PowerTap range is being streamlined for next year, a cheap one, and a light one. IIRC the cheap one is about $800.

    Much easier to set up then a hub or crank set

    No set up on a PowerTap – put wheel in bike, turn on ANT+ on Garmin, wait 3 seconds: “Power Meter Found”, pedal off – mine’s never missed a beat in 18 months.

    and much easier to swap between bikes

    Easier than a wheel? Really? Tools required for wheel swap, errr… none.

    Good theory, still too expensive I reckon.

    Premier Icon flange
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    The thing that puts me off a powertap is the fact that I train on a road bike and an MTB, so essentially I’d need two wheels. Also, do you build the hub up on a race rim (for a road bike – carbon deep section of some sort) or do you build it up as a training wheel. Which means you either have to race without a powermeter or train on your lovely race wheel….

    Pedals remove part of this problem, however the road/mtb thing will still cause issues.

    RealMan
    Member

    No set up on a PowerTap – put wheel in bike, turn on ANT+ on Garmin, wait 3 seconds: “Power Meter Found”, pedal off – mine’s never missed a beat in 18 months.

    So you don’t bother with things like spokes, rims, tubes, tyres, and cassettes..?

    Easier than a wheel? Really? Tools required for wheel swap, errr… none.

    Not much point having two bikes at that level running the same wheelset, is there?

    i thought i was a bit crazy to train with a powertab on a mtb?

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Power doesn’t really mean much on the MTB, fluctuates too much.

    So you don’t bother with things like spokes, rims, tubes, tyres, and cassettes..?

    You need those anyway, using a pedal based power system doesn’t negate the need for a rear wheel πŸ™„

    I can see the choice between a training/racing wheel point, that’s more valid.

    RealMan
    Member

    No, but most people have a bike, before they add a power system to it. And for that step, the pedals are the easiest way to go.

    Premier Icon pedalhead
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    I’d certainly much rather move pedals from bike to bike than have to compromise on a “one rear wheel fits all” solution and be constantly moving wheels between posh bike & turbo trainer multiple times per week.

    matthew_h
    Member

    Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of training using power meters over HR training etc? I’m under the impression that it is better but just not sure how.

    RealMan
    Member

    Power readings are instant, and tell you what you’re outputting right now. Heartrate is delayed to effort. You put in a big effort, your heartrate takes time to respond. So you can go over your limit before you’ve realised it.

    Also power rate is pretty definitive, but heartrates change due to age and environment.

    matthew_h
    Member

    All sounds sensible. I can see how they help for pacing on TTs etc. but just wasn’t sure about the training side of it.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
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    Power meter training is like HRM training on steroids.

    Going by feeling (rateing your effort from 1-10) will fluctuate based on warmup, mood, weather, fatigue, etc.

    Training by speed is infuence by hills, wind etc.

    Going by HRM is infuemnced by a lot of factors that the above has, but is better.

    Going by power is the holy grail, training at Xwatts is always Xwatts, regardless of any other factors. And you can see the measured improvement in figures (was that time trial realy that good, or did you just get a tailwind on the exposed section, etc etc etc).

    Premier Icon ourmaninthenorth
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    Never mind the ease of use aspect, how accurate is it to be?

    Reason I say this is that we all know that BHP of cars measured at the flywheel reads higher than at the wheels. And it’s at the wheels that it counts….

    How efficient/inefficient is a bike drivetrain for me to know that 250 watts at the pedals isn’t only 150 watts at the wheels?

    Unless, of course, it’s just another fancy-dan toy for the overbiked sportive set….

    Premier Icon njee20
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    I’d certainly much rather move pedals from bike to bike than have to compromise on a “one rear wheel fits all”

    Fair comment and I do agree to an extent, but you could buy 2 PowerTaps for similar money! I think I’d choose a Quarq over a pedal system anyway, be interesting to see how this pans out, if they do get the cost down then it could be a really good viable alternative.

    Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of training using power meters over HR training etc?

    HR takes a while to respond – you can’t ride intervals on HR for anything less than a minute, and really 5 minutes to allow it to stabilise. It also fluctuates naturally, a low HR may mean you’re rested, or overtrained, or fitter, or ill, it’s very hard to tell. Conversely power is absolute, in essence, if your power goes up on a given route then you’re fitter (or you’ve gained weight, so technically power:weight). It responds instantly too, so you can compare 5 second sprint intervals. You can use it to pace yourself in TTs and when climbing, to stop yourself going off too hard etc.

    It’s more numbers to look at too!

    RealMan
    Member

    Never mind the ease of use aspect, how accurate is it to be?

    Reason I say this is that we all know that BHP of cars measured at the flywheel reads higher than at the wheels. And it’s at the wheels that it counts….

    How efficient/inefficient is a bike drivetrain for me to know that 250 watts at the pedals isn’t only 150 watts at the wheels?

    Would be very interesting to get a power hub and those pedals, and see the difference.

    Doubt you’d lose 100 watts, what is a bike drivetrain at optimum efficiency? >95% I thought.

    Unless, of course, it’s just another fancy-dan toy for the overbiked sportive set….

    πŸ˜€

    Cracks me up how many non-elites have power meters. Great, it tells you what power you are supposedly putting out, but if you get dropped in a 3rd cat race it’s a bit silly really

    Premier Icon ourmaninthenorth
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    Doubt you’d lose 100 watts, what is a bike drivetrain at optimum efficiency? >95% I thought.

    Sure, an extreme example, but you see where I’m at with that. I wouldn’t want to drop $1500 on pedals to find that I’m getting an over-reading. Kinda defeats the purpose (other than relative measurement, which can be done for zilch).

    Premier Icon pedalhead
    Subscriber

    Cracks me up how many non-elites have power meters. Great, it tells you what power you are supposedly putting out, but if you get dropped in a 3rd cat race it’s a bit silly really

    You don’t have to be an elite racer to benefit from it as a training aid.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    SRM claim a 99% accuracy don’t they, so it should be pretty good.

    The more worn your drivetrain the less accurate it will become I guess, but I don’t know what the drop would be, <10% I’d have thought, bikes are meant to be incredibly efficient.

    RealMan
    Member

    It might have a zero error, but it will still be consistent, and apart from comparing to other people with different systems, it will still work. Won’t it? Also, rule #74

    Rule #74
    / Cycle computers should be simple, small and mounted on the stem.

    Forgo the data and ride on feel; little compares to the pleasure of riding as hard as your mind will allow. If you are not a Pro or aspire to be one, then you don’t need a SRM or PowerTap. To paraphrase BSNYC, an amateur cyclist using a power meter is like hiring an accountant to tell you how poor you are. As for Garmins, how often do you get lost on a ride? They are bulky, ugly and superflous. Cycle computers should be simple, small and mounted on the stem. And preferably wireless.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    but it will still be consistent

    No it won’t, like I say, a worn drivetrain will affect it.

    If you are not a Pro or aspire to be one

    Do most people not aspire to it – even if they’ll never achieve it πŸ™‚

    RealMan
    Member

    You’re right about that, could be a loophole – what’s the exact definition of aspire…

    Dunno, if you’ve got $1500 pedals, you’ve probably got a pretty decent drive train, that you are going to look after.

    what’s the exact definition of aspire…

    deluded must appear in the definition somewhere πŸ™‚

    RealMan
    Member

    deluded must appear in the definition somewhere

    Very good πŸ˜†

    http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/1999/aug3099/30pedal.html

    tl;dr: For a well-maintained transmission system, efficiency is generally between 86% and 99%.

    mustard
    Member

    Realman – is the Garmin edge 500 not the ultimate in small (well maybe not all that small..) and mounted on the stem?

    No ugly magnets or sensors cable tied to your frame/forks either (unless you want cadence or to use in indoors)

    RealMan
    Member

    No ugly magnets or sensors cable tied to your frame/forks either (unless you want cadence or to use in indoors)

    You’re right about that, but it isn’t that small.

    However, that Garmin appears to be upside down, so it must be labelled as ridiculous, and never be used.

    jfletch
    Member

    but it will still be consistent

    No it won’t, like I say, a worn drivetrain will affect it.

    Won’t a pedal based system be the most consistent? After all you are trying to measure the power you are putting into the bike at the pedals, not what the bike is putting onto the road.

    Pedal system – measured power = riders output
    Hub systems – measured power = riders output – drive train efficiency

    As drivetrain efficiency decreases as it wears it will appear you are outputting less power but in fact you are outputting the same power but your bike is buggered.

    mustard
    Member

    that Garmin appears to be upside down, so it must be labelled as ridiculous, and never be used.

    Lol!

    But it matches my bike soooo well and no I, won’t post a pic as I have a spacer under my stem! πŸ˜›

    Premier Icon flange
    Subscriber

    Forgo the data and ride on feel; little compares to the pleasure of riding as hard as your mind will allow. If you are not a Pro or aspire to be one, then you don’t need a SRM or PowerTap. To paraphrase BSNYC, an amateur cyclist using a power meter is like hiring an accountant to tell you how poor you are. As for Garmins, how often do you get lost on a ride? They are bulky, ugly and superflous. Cycle computers should be simple, small and mounted on the stem. And preferably wireless.

    Utter rubbish. Why bother with a computer at all if thats the case. How do you measure improvement? ‘Oh yeah, I definitely felt like I went faster that time…’. If you’re not racing then, to an extent I question the benefits but even then if someone just wants to get fit, go faster and so on then a measurement of that could be something that measures power.

    A basic computer measures speed, time and possibly average speed. What would you use this information for? To measure improvements. So a Powertap merely adds to this information by telling you that you held ‘x’ number of watts over a given period. Additionally, if you’re training then you can train at a given power output to improve certain aspects of your fitness – base, endurance, speed and so on.

    My Garmin isn’t much bigger than the cateye it replaced yet I can plot new rides, my LEJOG that I’m planning, log routes that I’ve not ridden before (very handy for Thetford) and various other functions that I use on a regular basis. Yes, sometimes I just go out for a ride without it and I enjoy just riding a bike. But I also enjoy racing and want to improve and these tools help me do it.

    Your post is the standard tripe rattled out by someone either close minded enough to think they know it all, or jealous that they can’t afford one

    Premier Icon pedalhead
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    lol I thought the same but then presumed “Mr Slamit” was trolling πŸ˜€

    RealMan
    Member

    I’d probably use a garmin if it would stay on the bike. Those mounts are rubbish, made of the softest cheese ever.

    mustard
    Member

    Have you used the new mounts that the Garmin twists onto? They are held on the bike by O rings and seem fine to me, stay put on my full susser and rigid hardtail.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    I’d probably use a garmin if it would stay on the bike. Those mounts are rubbish, made of the softest cheese ever.

    Really? My edge 305’s never come off on any of my bikes?

    Premier Icon flange
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    Mine seems pretty secure – better than the cateye ones

    Premier Icon pedalhead
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    Bikeradar have quoted the UK rrp as Β£1,149.

    Your post is the standard tripe rattled out by someone either close minded enough to think they know it all, or jealous that they can’t afford one

    😯 πŸ˜€

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