£5billion?

Pretty insignificant when compared to the rate Dave and the boys are adding to the national debt currently…. surely?

I’m no expert but this looks pretty shit from where I’m sitting.

Pretty insignificant when compared to the rate Dave and the boys are adding to the national debt currently…. surely?

Yep.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
I found this pretty good.

There’s something wrong with wanting to be a politician.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should automatically be excluded from doing so.

Go to the library Amazon and get a copy of Plato’s Republic. He did this question is some considerable depth nearly 2,500 years ago….

Anyway, I;d also give binners one. Vote of support that is.

I don’t really like or seem to agree with ANY politician. But the current encumbents have been sent into the building site by us and asked to rebuild a nice house out of the rubble left by the previous bunch. And we don’t like what they are having to do, or how its looking.

By ‘us’ I am meaning the royal ‘us’ not us in the real us sense.

First G&T of the evening in, can I suggest a long term view? Post 1947, and the creation of the NHS (or indeed post 1912 and NI) all our parties have been pulled to the centre. Right wing can’t get rid of ‘socialist’ health service (hopefully!) and left wing can’t get rid of banks (spineless). Thus “politics” is mostly wrangling over the fine print, therefore intrinsically boring and alienating to most of the electorate (low voter turnout). Result is coalition WITH NO MANDATE totally destroying the country. Result is-going to hell in a handcart, probably with slick tyres to speed entry.

Seadog to stretch your point we dont like them because they set fire to the rubble, then ran it over with a crusher and told us they had no choice.

Everyone knows it would be bad [ or not as good as boom times] but as the sated aim was to reduce the deficit it is clear that cutting the hell out of everything has still increased the amount we owe. By anyones measure that is a fail as it is worse than when they started “rebuilding ” the house

I’m certainly no fan of the banks’ methods but why on earth would you want to “get rid” of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?

I’m certainly no fan of the banks’ methods but why on earth would you want to “get rid” of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?

Depends how you measure it, and what you mean by ‘banks’.

Typically when people are moaning about banks, they mean investment banking / hedge funds etc, which are only a small part of the things that go on in the city, so are way less financially productive than (for example) manufacturing, ‘creative industries’ (games and films and music) etc.

Even if you consider all the city stuff, ie. All banking but not wider financial stuff like your high street accountant or whatever, it is hard to find a measure that puts it higher than manufacturing.
Eg.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_the_city_contribute_14_of_gdp-2397

To add to that, given the level of state subsidy and rescue of major banks over the last few years, not to mention the damage their reckless actions and insane risk models have done to the wider economy, it’s hard to argue that the investment side of banking has had a net positive effect on the economy recently.

Mmmmmm not really. The bail outs given to the banks aren’t dead money though. We’ll get it back, probably more.
Banking is an industry, its not seperated into investment, high st etc so when people refer to banking; they must mean…….banking. Which is the biggest contributor to our GDP. It’s not something I’m personally happy about but it’s just how it is.

so when they say banking they dont mean Finance and business but just banking so you end up with less than manufacturing or 9% v 11.6%
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_the_city_contribute_14_of_gdp-2397

why on earth would you want to “get rid” of the industry which contributes the most to our GDP?
Out of interest how much of the last 4 years and subsequent fallout do you think has been caused by the banking sector and what has been its effects on our GDP?
People want to get rid * it because it has cost us a lot and rather shafted the total economy…I am not sure why I have needed to state that tbh.
* dont think they do they want its excesses controlled, they want the bonus system to end and they want to feel like the bankers who caused this are feeling the squeee just like every other ordinary person.

In with the Binn. binners is doing such a good job, I hardly need to comment these days.

+1 Binners

these IOU’s are largely academic, have you seen the US debt!!!!!!!

I’m with Binners….this lot are proper dire!

+1 Binners.

A couple of thoughts to add. If “banking” is such a significant part of our GDP, how and from where does it “create” money? By dealing in “money”? But somewhere, something has to be manufactured surely? Or are we supplying a service to China and India? If so, when will they wise up and service themselves?

For the record, I don’t trust or believe this bunch of shysters (Government). Even if they told me night was dark and rain was wet, I would still think there was an angle. As for the Labour party. 🙄

Ultimately it’s driven by economics.

Sadly these fidiots believe in trickle down economics. I.e. The rich getting richer will filter down and benefit the poorer.

Which is evidently bollocks.

A colleague (who shall remain nameless) was [/s]unfortunate enough to accompany the Cameron trade mission to China.

General gist of his summary was along the lines of:

“Hi. I’m Dave. Used to be in PR donchaknow! This is George. Bloody hell George! We were at Eton together! And now I’m PM! And you’re Chancellor! How the **** did this happen?!”

and off they went for more Champers….

I hear Norway is nice….

Binners -1

Just for the **** of it.

Ultimately it’s driven by economics.

The US is the worlds biggest debtor, in monetary terms, a significant amount of it is owed to china and japan, japan has debts of 220% of GDP– these cannot be realistically called in, capitalism would meltdown, so they are forever being ‘traded’– each trade ‘earns’ a sum– for those involved in this pass the parcel– if it goes wrong, well the state will bale them out…..

Capitalism is in crisis, its leaders have no answers to the problems that they have nurtured, staggering from one summit to another, interesting times………

Why was borrowing rising when the economy was booming? Anyone with half a brain knows that you need to save money in the good times to prepare for the bad times.

I despair at the hopelessness of modern democracy and the fact that humans are incapable of making any system, from capitalism to communism work in the long-term. We evolved to be hunter-gatherers and our brains are still no more advanced…

Unfortunately, the folk who have the brains and skills to run the country well (for the benefit of all citizens/subjects) are too busy doing more interesting things…

(I suppose we could always import a few politicians from Germany – they generally seem to be a bit more competent & we seem to import everything else so why not…?)

binners – Member
I have to say… I’m getting quite unnerved by all this agreeing with me. Just to check… this is the Singletrack Forum, isn’t it?

From a casual observance recently from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

As to the OP’s wife, she is spot on, nobody outside of politics has any faith whatsoever in either the Politicians, or any instrument of the State, like the Police, as to the NHS anyone with any sense at all avoids it like the plague and it doesn’t take much business acumen to realise borrowing huge sums of money to finance groups of individuals clustered around computers all day instead of doing what they should be, either in the Police Force or the NHS, is a busted flush. Don’t even get me started on financing wars on borrowed money, or a huge state benefit system, if I had my way, there would be nothing for anyone unless it was earned, I’d set up huge Energy Farms powered by people in Hamster wheels or exercise bikes connected to generators, even the disabled could take part and pay them for the energy they create… Everyone would contribute, they would all be fitter and certainly not fat (nobody came out of Belsen over weight), Bankers? Hang them all and start over.

Apologies for the Rant..

how’s life in bedrock fred ? ^^^

From a casual observance recently from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

from what i can see anyone who might disagree or have right wing views is banned, or would be for uttering them, is that not the case?

Yes that is what did for TJ his rabid right wing views 🙄

i think the thing is right wing can stray all the way to neo nazi and that is not tolerated on here.

Plenty of right wing folk on here as a quick read of this or any politics thread will show.

Sadly these fidiots believe in trickle down economics. I.e. The rich getting richer will filter down and benefit the poorer.

Which is evidently bollocks

I’ve been told this often, but exaclty why? And please no-one post that stupid long post about the loaves of bread again, that didn’t answer anything.

If people get rich, and they stay in the UK (I know many don’t) then what happens to their money? They spend it, don’t they? I know some goes to China etc but plenty surely doesn’t..

But somewhere, something has to be manufactured surely?

No, not at all. Why would it?

If people get rich, and they stay in the UK (I know many don’t) then what happens to their money? They spend it, don’t they? I know some goes to China etc but plenty surely doesn’t.

Of course rich people spend all the money they have that is why they are rich 😕
They use all their new found money to improve the lot of poor people so we can all life a better live…they want to get wealthy to help us not to help themselves

GAWD BLESS EM for helping us rather than themselves

TBH i dont think the right wing who say this even believe it it is just spin for them to justify why they are doing it.

This may come as a shock, but just because the rich are in the UK, doesn’t mean their money is with them. No longer content to sit in suitcases under the bed, its now pretty independent and often likes to swan off and do its own thing. Going on holiday to fancy pants destinations like the Caymen Islands, Belize, Monaco and the like.

See Tory Tax adviser, and Monaco domiciled (you really couldn’t make it up, could you?) Phillip Green*, Tory MP (and former French non-dom) Zac Goldsmith, or government adviser and Belize resident Lord Ashcroft (who generously donates some of the money he hasn’t paid in tax directly to the Tory party instead)

Sometimes it does stay in the country. But this usually involves being invested in uber-expensive London property. All bought through a front company to ensure no tax or stamp duty is paid

So… we’re all benefiting how exactly from the ‘trickle down’ from these ****ing parasites?

Oh… actually… I’m sure they have many staff. All on minimum wage. Which they no doubt consider overly generous

* who, lest we forget, funneled £1.5 billion in dividends through his wifes Monaco accounts to avoid paying a penny in tax, on income all generated in this country.

Aye green regularly sends letters and memos to the Tax office advising them on how to raise more tax from businesses. It really is amazing just how brazen a government can be about this it is appalling.

YOu really could not make this up

Of course rich people spend all the money they have that is why they are rich

So where do they get their flash cars and houses from then?

Obviously they are spending a good deal of it.

And less sarcasm – I’m looking for a serious economic discussion. For those earning over say £200k (not talking billionaires) – how much of their money goes:

a) in tax
b) on overseas living
c) to overseas manufacturers?

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

Molly. How on earth do we, as a society, benefit from Bernie Ecclestone, and his ilk, buying their pampered parasitic offspring £50 million Chelsea townhouses? When they’re bought through front companies to ensure they pay no tax or stamp duty?

Molly. How on earth do we, as a society, benefit from Bernie Ecclestone, and his ilk, buying their pampered parasitic offspring £50 million Chelsea townhouses?

From whom did they buy the house?

^^^^ you answered a question with a question that seems to have little bearing on the question asked – could you explain how we all benefit from this?

You really think we could actually get those figures ?
Good Luck

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

aw please dont be like that you have so much more to give to this thread 😉

Molly. If I nipped out and buy a can of beans, 20% of the cost of this will be VAT. I will therefore be contributing more to society than, for example, Bernie Ecclestone buying a £50 million house through a front company? He will be buying the house off someone else who will also have registered the property through a front company, so won’t be paying any tax on the enormous profit he makes on the transaction

Do feel free to enlighten me to the justice of this situation? All our (you know… the ‘little people’) financial transactions incur tax. The mega-rich just devise schemes where theirs don’t. And the government – mainly multi-millionaires themselves remember – see this as perfectly acceptable

Trickle down? I’m afraid its the other way around

For Mol,

Power and wealth are the preserve of the ruling class , they ‘make’ the rules skewed of course to benefit themselves and their ilk, however they need lots of little people to actually do the work that produces this wealth, thats where you come in, you work long hours, and are encouraged to believe that is the way life is– you get some small rewards, but you must keep on working or all you have strived for will have been ion vain(mortgage).

Meanwhile back at the top table,lots of partying to be done, a few arms twisted here and there, a few palms to be greased, and some promises made to officials of various govts’, you are always amazed at how few rich people can cajole and control the millions below, still life is always good at the top……

you answered a question with a question that seems to have little bearing on the question asked

It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates. So if you spend a bunch of money, it doesn’t disappear – it gets transferred to someone else.

Do feel free to enlighten me to the justice of this situation?

I’m not claiming that any of this is just, or that what rich people do is all fine and dandy. Let’s just make that absolutely clear.

I am saying that if someone buys a house, that money goes somewhere. It’s all well and good to claim it disappears up the chuff of some other rich person, but you’ve crossed the line into biased guesswork.

Someone somewhere received money from the sale of that house. What did they do with it? Let’s assume it was recently rennovated, and it was brought from a property developer. That person is likely to be a lot less rich than Ecclestone but still pretty rich by our standards. So maybe they live in a big house in Oxfordshire, not in the Seychelles. That money then gets spent by them in their local environment, no? To rennovate the house they probably employed local London contractors, who can now feed their families etc.

I’m not saying trickle down works and is fine, I AM NOT A TORY. But I am interested in the economics of the situation, and I want to go beyond Socialist Worker style red flag waving. I do not think that this £50m is dead money to the UK economy, but I am happy to accept sound evidence to the contrary should it be available on this thread, which I doubt.

It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates.

I’ll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit. This was all generated in high street sales from British shops. He then funnels all this money through his wifes Monaco bank accounts so as not to pay any tax. And would you believe the Tories got this leech on board to advise on Tax policy?!!!! Like I said… you really couldn’t make it up!

So, anyway… This £1.5 billion has left the country to a super-yacht endowed, billionaires playground without contributing a penny in tax to the country where it was earned*

In what way is this money ‘circulating’?

* the word earned is used figuratively, obviously

Well for what it’s worth in my career I’ve held both extreme views, from being a very left wing NUJ branch secretary in the Seventies where demarcation was the rule until now, where I actually voted bloody Tory in the last election such was my disgust at Blair and Brown squandering the opportunity they were given in the late 90’s, it is a sad fact they all want to appear to be City friendly and there’s nothing that corrupts a socialist more than a champagne lifestyle.

The problem we are actually faced with now is simply one of perception, we perceive they are all stupid and they probably are. Business folk like myself who need to employ more people, desperately as it happens, can’t because we have no faith in the future, nor do we want to invest by borrowing (not that we could as the Banks stand right now) or investing cash if we were lucky to have any left after five years of recession, again due to negative perception of a future market in the near term.

No-one is selling sun filled uplands as the future right now and seriously they need to so nobody does anything, we exist one day to the next and hope things will work themselves out, meanwhile the banks that yes, are the cause of the problem and are not swayed by Government other than negatively in the increasing demands placed upon their debt ratios and capitol requirements by the Basle agreements and other reports that the BOE are being advised by. Meanwhile business failures are running at the date of 10,000 plus a year I believe I read somewhere.

Concerning money leaving the country I was interested to hear about the Bristol Pound, anyone know anything more about it? They are or have created their own currency in Bristol with the view of keeping cash local, I shall go google it after I finish this, it sounds like an interesting and radical concept, which we so desperately need to all this, some sort of live wire group with a radical solution and a change from the same old same old left and right wing politics, neither are tolerant of the other and politics never ever helped any commercial situation and until commerce does pick up we are going to continue to be in the crap.

Edit: Here an interesting example to radically keep money local Bristol Pound

The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates. So if you spend a bunch of money, it doesn’t disappear – it gets transferred to someone else

I would advise you to read up on monetarist views re the constant speed of money before spouting this not that i agree with it

I am saying that if someone buys a house, that money goes somewhere. It’s all well and good to claim it disappears up the chuff of some other rich person, but you’ve crossed the line into biased guesswork

Yes what you are saying is not a guess at all and is well evidenced and beyond doubt 🙄

Let’s assume it was recently rennovated, and it was brought from a property developer. That person is likely to be a lot less rich than Ecclestone but still pretty rich by our standards. So maybe they live in a big house in Oxfordshire, not in the Seychelles. That money then gets spent by them in their local environment, no? To rennovate the house they probably employed local London contractors, who can now feed their families etc.

REMEMBER

Ill-informed ranting and supposition will be ignored.

Binners please stop giving an actual example from the real world

I’m not saying trickle down works and is fine, I AM NOT A TORY. But I am interested in the economics of the situation, and I want to go beyond Socialist Worker style red flag waving. I do not think that this £50m is dead money to the UK economy, but I am happy to accept sound evidence to the contrary should it be available on this thread, which I doubt.

SOUND EVIDENCE? can i not jut make up a fanciful hypothetical scenario with a bucket load of assumptions like you do?
Molly you are doing everything you seem to think we are and more odd thread

See those question marks? I am asking questions. If anyone has answers I will gladly hear them.

can i not jut make up a fanciful hypothetical scenario with a bucket load of assumptions like you do?

I don’t think you understand. I am not trying to claim anything. I am trying to ask questions and promote discussion. You do however seem to be claiming a lot.

I’ll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit

Binners that is one example. That’s not a good picture of the general situation though, because there aren’t many Phillip Greens compared to £200k plus earners.

it sounds like an interesting and radical concept

I think it’s been done many times before. I don’t see how it’ll stop any money leaving the country though, you can just exchange it for other currencies after all, can’t you?

binners – Member
It has a bearing. The point I am trying to make is that all money circulates.
I’ll repeat the earlier example: Phillip Green made £1.5 billion in profit. This was all generated in high street sales from British shops. He then funnels all this money through his wifes Monaco bank accounts so as not to pay any tax. And would you believe the Tories got this leech on board to advise on Tax policy?!!!! Like I said… you really couldn’t make it up!

So, anyway… This £1.5 billion has left the country to a super-yacht endowed, billionaires playground without contributing a penny in tax to the country where it was earned*

In what way is this money ‘circulating’?

* the word earned is used figuratively, obviously

Sorry, don’t mean to be picking on you, but Sunseeker make lots of those Yachts, right now they are the Southampton Boat show and the jobs building them are in the UK.. No idea if Richard Green bought one.

You can’t blame folk for not wanting to pay tax to these idiots who squander it, cheat on their expenses, fight wars for their own self aggrandisement and any number of other means of wasting it.