After many, many years of faithful service, I think the time has finally come to retire my Turner Flux. It’s one of the original pre-DW link frames. 26″ wheels, 1 1/4″ head tube, QR, layback post etc, etc. You name it, the standard has probably been superseded and sourcing decent parts to replace those that are wearing out is getting harder and harder. It’s also got geometry that certainly dates it – and me! Very much an arse up, head down sort of bike used for XC/marathon racing, pretty much a road bike with knobblies on it. I’m looking at the new, more modern geometries and wondering just how different is a new bike going to feel? Am I going to be relearning how to ride again (or, some may say, maybe actually learning how to do it properly)? I watched an interview with Cy explaining how he arrived at his Longshot geometry and it sounds like it makes perfect sense. For what it’s worth I’m looking at either a Cotic Solaris or a Pace RC529 (I had one of Pace’s original hardcore hardtails – the RC303 – which I absolutely loved). It’s quite exciting – my first new mountain bike in a very, very long time. How did other, er, veteran riders adjust to these newer bikes?

Where do you live? Can you just borrow one for a day or two?

In my experience I want from a 26″ steel hardtail to a Geometron and while it took a little getting used to, I didn’t have to learn to ride again. The big problem is trying to go back to a regular bike and wondering how you ever rode such a tiny, sketchy, deathtrap.

My LLS bike is about 4″ longer in wheelbase and 2″ longer in reach than the previous (longer than before, ie already longer than yours) bike, and since I’ve added a -2 headset.

Bloody brilliant.

Age 56 3/4

and wondering just how different is a new bike going to feel?

For a while any new bike is going to feel just weird.

 Am I going to be relearning how to ride again

No, what will most likely happen is you’ll be riding along and you’ll get to that bit in one of your loops that has a “thing” on it that for one reason or another makes you tense, and you’ll approach it and it’ll be fine…no drama at all…and you’ll dismiss it at first as sometimes it’s OK. But you’ll to the next one ad that’ll be fine as well, and before you know it, you’ve changed the ride to go over to that other “thing” where you always always hang up just to see…and you’ll realise that it wasn’t just you after all.

The main thing you’ll probably find is the new bike doesn’t want to turn into corners. You generally need to ride more in the middle of the bike rather than hanging off the back like on older scarier steep head angled / short wheel bases bikes of the past. If you don’t weight the front wheel it either won’t turn into the corner or on faster flat corners it might wash out on you.

However, once you’ve got used to it you’ll be faster almost everywhere. The only place you might not be is on really pedally and tight and twisty stuff where 29er wheels take a bit longer to get up to speed and won’t be quite as nimble.

I’m still on 27.5” for both bikes – my play hardtail I only built up last year and will be staying 27.5” for as long as I can get parts for it. Next year I think I might mullet my current 27.5” full suss and see how that works out. I suspect I’ll end up full 29er next year though in due course.

The last 29er I had a go on had suspension too soft for me and it was a night ride / quick go down a trail I’ve ridden hundreds of times on multiple bikes/ I had an underwhelming helmet light only (as my bar light was on my bike) and I still got a pb along it. It was quite a straight but pedally trail centre trail and no matter how I hit it on either of my current bikes I can’t get near that 29er in the dark pb.

Earlier this year I went from a 10 year old 26 inch full sus bike to carbon full sus 29er. The geo shift and larger wheels make such a difference (especially as I am tall). New bike is lighter, longer and lower, slacker out front and steeper in the rear for climbing. The wheelbase vs. my old XL frame is over 3.5 inches longer, you feel like you’re in the bike as opposed to on it, if that makes any sense at all. It didn’t take a long time to get used to, mostly because I was pretty much out every day, it’s so much fun!!

I went from a Turner 5 Spot to a Whyte S-150.

It felt like cheating. The way the thing could cover ground and carry speed was amazing. Despite being a bit heavier it also climbed much better due to having more traction and momentum.

But, on tighter stuff is did take a while to get used to the steering. I ran out of trail occasionally as you couldn’t just flick it round tight corners. Also making sure to weight the front wheel. I had a couple of stupid spills where the front wheel just washed out on me because I was used to hanging off the back so much.

I’ve got the hang of it now though and have also added a LLS Scandal hardtail to the collection.
Once you are used to modern geometry you won’t go back. I’ve got a 2011 Superlight in the back of the garage and it feels absolutely terrifying.

I’ve been riding for over 30 years and have only recently jumped on the long/low/slack bandwagon. My old hardtail was a MK2 Cotic BFe (420mm reach iirc) with a slack seat angle and 26″ wheels. I replaced it with a custom Marino 29″ hardtail with 510mm reach and 77° seat angle. I had spent most of my life riding bikes way too small for me as at 6’5″ sizing up for more reach had bever been an option. Modern geometry takes a little getting used to but for me I felt at home very quickly and realised how wrong mtb geometry has been for years, bikes are a little less direct and nimble but far more stable and have more grip, I for one have no desire to go back to old style geometry!

You will feel like you have died on gone to heaven and Gabe gave you a magic bike. New geom and suspension and brakes are all so bloody good. Not that the old stuff was bad, but new stuff is amzing.
In fact I think you would make a great control, make a video of back to back rides on new and old.

I have done exactly the same thing this year, moved from a 26 Superlight to a trance X. I am possibly overbiked now but wanted something that would give me more confidence on rougher terrain plus availability of suitable bikes was limited at time of purchase. I love the new bike in every way apart from weight, it is considerably heavier than my old bike. On normal off-road stuff it feels great but hit a hill and it feels weighty and slow. How have you guys adapted in this respect? for me I have just accepted that I have to select a lower gear than on my old bike and take my time. I realise that gear ratios are completely different on a 1×12 and 29 wheels. I agree that I can ride things that I would bale out on the superlight. I have considered saving some weight on the wheels but would it actually change much in the great scheme of things. Incidentally, my times and averages on my regular loops are about the same as my old bike.

The geo shift and larger wheels make such a difference (especially as I am tall)

I had spent most of my life riding bikes way too small for me as at 6’5″ sizing up for more reach had bever been an option

Both of these comments are very intriguing, I’m 6’2″ and was always on the cusp between an L and an XL frame.  Echoes what Cy also said in that interview, older XL frames were like gates.  I hated riding them, so I’d go for the L and use a longer stem and a layback post.  And whilst the bike was more ‘chuckable’ I had a long length of seatpost in the way!

my times and averages on my regular loops are about the same as my old bike

I’d love for that to be the case but I’m not as young nor as fit as I used to be!  The head remembers how I used to ride but the legs protest…

Echoing what others have said earlier….
Went from an old-school 2004 Epic to an EpicEvo in summer 2020.
The difference was just stunning in terms of the development of geometry and suspension.
Rejuvenated my riding, and found I’m covering the ground quicker than i was 10-15 years ago.

Just get out there and enjoy the new bike, you’ll have a blast and be amazed what you can do on it

Answering your question a differnet way. Would I want to go back to mountain biking on my 1997 Lava-Dome. Hell no! Your description pretty much nails old mountain bikes – road bikes with knobly tyres.

On my first couple of LLS rides I had some moments where I had the front wash out due to my old-skool tendancy to weight the rear when cornering hard in decents. So it took a bit of reprogramming to do the opposite of instinct, but once you do, you begin to realise how much harder you can ride the bike (safely) and I now end up looking ways to generate speed where previously I’d have been grabbing and handful of v-brake.

Do it! And watch this:

Do it! And watch this:

Very useful.

Although re his cornering, only difference I could see was he had bent arms, his hips hadn’t moved forward at all, so I think most of his bodyweight was still over the BB.

On normal off-road stuff it feels great but hit a hill and it feels weighty and slow

“Feels”, but is it actually slower?

On normal off-road stuff it feels great but hit a hill and it feels weighty and slow. How have you guys adapted in this respect?

I’ve lost 7kgs or so and also started doing more climbing / mileage / some turbo training. Lost more than any of my bikes have gained. New bikes are less tiring over choppy stuff and far faster downhill. Amazing what you can get away with and still really fun.

You’ll love it. In fact you’ll probably scare yourself a bit as you hit speeds you could only dream of before. Guarantee you have a big grin on your face the very first ride.

How did other, er, veteran riders adjust to these newer bikes?

I did it incrementally over 3 years using HT frames as test beds and then moving them on for the next phase of experimentation. This culminated in a LLS FS earlier this year, as well as a custom HT.

Very happy with NewSkool geometry and riding concepts.

Intheborders- that’s the thing, I’m not sure, I will have to check my sections on Garmin but I think it is probably very close to my old bike, I think the fact I use a lower gear to keep the weight moving makes it feel slower. It’s probably within a mph or 2 of the old bike. Rolling on the flatter stuff and on the road definitely feels faster. I still wonder if lighter wheels-stock ones are 2450g- would improve the feel but it would only save a pound or so in weight at the most.

Similar story to above for me.
In late 2019 I went from a blur 4x to a calibre sentry. So bigger wheels, 4-5 deg slacker Ha and 50-60mm longer reach and wheelbase. I’d had the blur since 2014 and before that was on a Marin fs.
Like night and day. First ride out I rode down a scary rock drop/roll that I had bottled every time before. It just felt like cheating. Cornering required more input. It wanted to go in a straight line. Shorter stem purchased. Soon adjusted to it. Climbing was no more of a chore- but the blur was never a good climbing bike.
Now on a shorter travel lls bike (aether9) but with similar numbers geometry wise to the sentry. Finding I can ride down stuff I was walking 5-10 years ago is quite something! I’ll be 52 in Jan.
I’ve still got the blur and occasionally ride it. Feels so twitchy I’ve no idea how I rode it down anything technical!

For what it’s worth I’m looking at either a Cotic Solaris or a Pace RC529

I’ve just replaced my 29er hardtail with something more ‘modern’ and closer in feel to my suspension bikes and spent a *lot* of time looking at the geometry on various frames. I rarely get to demo bikes (being an XL) and in the current supply situation thats even more difficult.

Whilst both of the frames you’re looking at are ‘new school’ they’re still quite different
.
– The pace has short (430mm) chainstays, 65HA, a very steep seat angle (76 unsagged = c78 sagged) anda *very* long reach. On the XL the reach is 508mm with an *unsagged* 150mm fork = c530mm sagged (someone may refine that adjustment)
– The Cotic is 503mm sagged on a 140mm fork with 444mm chain stays and 65/74 HA/SA so slacker.

What others have said on changing from an old school 26″ but the Cotic has a reputation for being a bit of a steamroller compared to older Cotic frames (long CS will give it stability at speed). The short stays on the Pace should make it more nimble and easier to get the front wheel

(I ended up with a Ragley Big Al. Similar reach to the Cotic, 435 CS and 65 HA unsagged- same as the Pace – but 64 unsagged seat)

I think the Cotic geo came from Geonetron.
Here’s my experience

My thoughts after 5 years on a Geometron with Mr. Porter now at the helm of my 35 year biking journey.
I am 6’2.5″, about 175lb. 
Back in August 2005, after about 12 months looking into longer bike geometry on MTBR etc. and extensive discussions, many of those with “The Pilot / AKA chainline Phil” and “Loamranger” [MTBR] – I bought my first G16 (27.5/27.5 size “Longest”) after a days test riding at FOD with Chris and Paul and “The Pilot” who jumped on immediately. 
(So did Robert “Loamranger” whom I’d just met – on hearing our feedback. He too is now on a G1 XL)

It was just SO nice to be on a bike that fit me! I’d worried about going 4″ longer on reach than my Nicolai Helius (26”), but needn’t have, standing on the bike felt so much more balanced.

Within 3 months I’d sold my Nicolai Helius AM and Pivot 429 XC and I’ve been a one-bike guy ever since. Fast wide open trails, rough ground, tight singletrack, nadgery woods, trials moves even – the Geometron conquers all. 

A year later, a second G16 black beauty with longer chainstays (and longer (222 X 70) shock, so longer rear travel). Soon that second bike was converted to a 29″ Lyric upfront for hybrid mode.
Love the 29” front end a lot. It’s a rough ground monster truck that handles like a GP bike.

April 2019 I upgraded to the G1 [now on X-Longest], again 27.5/29.
To be honest, I wasn’t expecting a great deal of improvements, I didn’t feel that was possible, given how superb my G16 was. But as Chris described rather tempting improvements – from the sophistication of the coil shock and, particularly, the removal of stiction by use of spherical bushings I went for it. Black again, it’s so durable and easy to care for that finish.
A long test ride on CP’s own XL hybrid bike tempted me. I took it home, same day.

And OMG, what an upgrade, it’s just incredible. Words escape me (I’ll try though). Pedals far better, handles better, descends better, steers better, the suspension is very significantly improved. Very adjustable too.
So, G1 is massive step up in riding fun AGAIN – thanks to Geometron Bikes’ ingenuity. It really does still get better every ride.
Another plus is I’ve been able to easily experiment with geo, just switching the seat stay mutators to try different BB heights. I went lower. 338 static with 2.5 tyres.
Thinking about a long geometry bike? you HAVE to try ride a Geometron. There really is no going back. 
Another advantage – build quality AND the support from the team at Wyastone are both superb.

There is a downside 
You realise how wrong most of the mag reviews are when discussing “normal” bikes, short chain stays etc. I guess they can’t diss the advertiser’s geometry or they’d not be in business.
They say, “Just Do It”? – in this case, they are totally right.”

Go for it.
Get to Wyastone fir a testride

My 10 year jump was really only to semi modern

74.5 seat tube, 67.5 head angle 473mm reach in XL

I would love to have tried something more radical but I really had to buy during lock down and I had ridden something very similar

It’s better than the old fs. It’s been out of shape (over whelmed) on two rocky descents one in the lakes on in the Peak. By I’ve whelmed I mean I felt like I was being pinged about and I’m sure I’d have gone faster on a more progressive bike.

But it’s been brilliant on everything else. Weirdly it seems to have the smallest turning circle of any bike I’ve ever owned. No wheel flop ever. Front wheel is still quite well weighted in my normal riding position. It feels spot on on Woburn single track. So it seems like the right bike for my riding ability and my local area

Similar move in the last few weeks – a 2009 DW Flux to a Bird Aether 9c.

It feels very worthwhile so far. I’ve still got to sort the fork and shock out to get the full modern bike experience.

The LLS thing – was expecting to be very stretched but it really isn’t, just more forward. The much steeper seat angle actually makes the bars feel possibly closer when seater just riding along. It’s only when the seat is dropped away that the front end feels reassuringly further away with more space to move around. Climbing too has been better than I expected.

I’m 48 and went from ancient (mid-90s Kona) to modern (Bird Aether 9c) earlier this year.

It seemed entirely natural, tbh. It just works so well. What I appreciate most of all is the front end stability – the feeling of control no matter how rough it gets.

What’s weird is getting back on my older bikes. The front wheel is so close and the steering so twitchy I always have the weird impression I’m trying to handstand on a unicycle

If you don’t weight the front wheel it either won’t turn into the corner or on faster flat corners it might wash out on you.

I’ll just repeat and reword this for your benefit: if you don’t get your weight forward (more than you think), you will very likely crash your bike and hurt yourself.

Intheborders- that’s the thing, I’m not sure, I will have to check my sections on Garmin but I think it is probably very close to my old bike,

I reckon you’ll be surprised.

Check this out from a post earlier in the year:

I just checked my times on a local climb, 4.7m and 1253ft which I’ve done 22 times (on this route).

Rank Date Time Bike
1 2 Aug 2015 46:23 Cube Stereo 26
2 10 Oct 2012 47:00 456Ti
3 24 Nov 2019 47:07 Flaremax
4 8 Mar 2013 47:55 456Ti
5 22 Dec 2020 48:17 Flaremax

Looks like it’s the rider as my 456Ti weighed about 10lbs less than my Flaremax and while age is an issue, I’ve always been pretty fit and the 5th fastest was this week.

What makes a bike a good/bad climber, part whatever

Not checked my times yet but it seems a lot of riders have accepted the climbing trade off for better all round performance and better technical climbing and descending ability. Seeing as the Trance is about 8 pounds heavier than the Superlight it’s not surprising it feels a bit more sluggish. Being 65 definitely doesn’t help either although I don’t feel overall fitness has changed much recently.

In the same boat as everyone else I updated 4 years ago (15yo Cove Handjob to Stanton Slackline) and was gobsmacked by the improvement. Particularly through the rocky descents around Dartmoor where the Cove would be knocked off line and hung up on the larger stuff, the Stanton just piled through. I’ve since moved on to a Bird Aether and the only snag I had was washing out the front end like others here, I ditched the fashionably short stem (30mm), reverted back to my old one (60mm) and all was good. I read the retrobike Facebook posts now about how it was all better in the old days and just know those particular individuals have never tried a modern bike.

I can’t wait to try this new style of riding out!  Just need to decide on the bike and hope that all the components required are in stock.  Which seems to be the biggest problem right now…

I went from a 26″ Nicolai Ion 16 (440 reach) to a 27.5″ G16 Longest (510 reach) and expected to be shoocked at how odd the G16 felt. And I sat on it, and it was…well….normal. I was almost disappointed that it didn’t feel stranger, and the G16 was more or less the absolute extreme of geometry at the time.

Seated position (or at least the distance from saddle to bars) really isn’t all that different, the top tubes are about the same length, but the seat angle is rotated forward around the BB, so there’s more bike in front of you when you’re standing, but sitting and pedalling shouldn’t be all that odd.

…it took a little getting used to, I didn’t have to learn to ride again. The big problem is trying to go back to a regular bike and wondering how you ever rode such a tiny, sketchy, deathtrap.

i would agree with this. especially the second part.

it won’t take long to adjust your inputs and you’ll be amazed at how well the bike fits.

Bit meh about the whole thing really. Pace 303 to a 2019 Whyte 901. Sure much faster down stuff, faster than my last of the 26″ Orange 5, but generally I just hate the 901 for the excess mass and 2.8″ tyres. Indeed the Whyte just depresses me when I think about it – tend to use my old Orange, which is dated now. Suspect the wheels weigh a fair whack, and have crappy leg destroying bearings.

26″ is dead, I agree. Hopefully so are the big 2.8″ tyres!

I adopted 29ers as soon as they appeared. This year I dropped a mate who used to drop me when I was riding my Inbred 29er, and he was riding a Prince Albert. Tables turned with my Big Dog v his Orbea Occam. Conclusion geometry may be more significant than wheel size.
All downhill singletrack mind

Little bit of a trend – like The-Beard and convert I’m ‘retiring’ an older Turner (an 09 DW Flux) and have just ordered a Canyon Lux Trail!

The Flux has been a great bike but I’m really excited to moving ahead several generations of bike. Although I am having a nagging doubt about finding out I’m still slow….

Roll on January!

Well I ordered a Pace RC529 which turned up a week or so ago.  First impression was that I fitted the bike so much better, felt far more relaxed and less aggressive a position than I’m used to.  Wide bars are, well, very wide and the long wheelbase caused me some issues on tight turns.  First descent and I reverted to type and slid back on the saddle so the front felt really light and a bit sketchy.  I’m struggling with the concept of weighting the front, it feels very alien at the moment and I’m sure I’m over exaggerating my posture and look ridiculous.  When I do get it right the bike feels very stable and picks up speed far too easily.  Gave myself a bit of a fright!  It is very different.  I went riding with a younger colleague who kept telling me I was riding “like someone from the 90’s”.  I did point out that I went on my my first MTB ride (of sorts) in 1989!

I’m on the cusp of going from a 2021 Salsa Timberjack from a 2015 El Mariachi. Going from fully rigid to hardtail with 130mm travel and a fair few degrees slacker than than the El Mar, 71 to 66.
Last suspension I had was a Santa Cruz Superlight, 2010, so not exactly slack on the head angle either.
Looks as if I’ll have to re-map my brain to the riding style of a LLS bike.

In my experience I want from a 26″ steel hardtail to a Geometron and while it took a little getting used to, I didn’t have to learn to ride again. The big problem is trying to go back to a regular bike and wondering how you ever rode such a tiny, sketchy, deathtrap.

I also went from a 26″ cove stiffee to a Geometron. The cove got retired very quickly after that.

Both geometry’s are fine, but the lls is my preference.

I’m struggling with the concept of weighting the front, it feels very alien

Practicing on some mellow less steep corners helped. Then steeper and faster. The tipping point was hitting some unexpected mud halfway round a corner and feeling like I had an extra chunk of time to collect everything compared to my old bike. Great fun 🙂

When we all say weighting the front it’s not getting right over the wheel – it’s more being in the middle of the bike really (as opposed to unweighting the front by getting off the back of the bike). Back in the day the default was arse behind the saddle over the back wheel to avoid going over the bars.

That’s not necessary now as the front wheel is a lot further in front of you and with a dropper post the saddle isn’t in your way so you can get low over the middle of the bike. Keep a bit of a bend in your elbows so if the front wheel drops into a hole you can extend yours arms to follow it without dragging your body weight forwards.

To ride well there’s a lot of things to do in corners- weight on the outside foot and inside handlebar grip – kind of counter balancing each other but getting the bike nicely meant into the corner and tyres biting into the trail. Also turning your hips into the corner and then pushing round the corner with the outside arm.

I’ve got the first 3 points down most of the time but the pushing round with the outside arm was only added in at a recent coaching session and it’s easier said than done. Working on it!

Like Joe says, just try to keep more centred. Watch Ben Cathro’s how to bike videos if you haven’t already as there’s some very useful tips.