SO far my pursuit of a gaggia classic has been fruitless 🙁 I am looking at different options and enjoying the research to be honest 🙂

Gaggia baby’s crop up frequently – how do they differ internally from the classic?

Also lots of De’Longhis on ebay – any to avoid? which are proper espresso machines that i can tinker with/play?

looking at this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DeLonghi-EC702-E-S-E-15-Bar-Pump-Espresso-Coffee-Maker-Machine/143085151117?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-Baby-06-Espresso-Coffee-Machine/264251572707?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GAGGIA-PURE-NEW-ESPRESSO-06-BARISTA-STYLE-COFFEE-MACHINE/283406964669?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DeLonghi-ECP33-21-Traditional-Pump-Espresso-Coffee-Machine15-bar-Black-RRP-179/163639949188?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DeLonghi-EC146B-1100W-Espresso-Machine/263914431175?epid=1191815309&hash=item3d7286a2c7:g:RwkAAOSw1SJbjO4g (this looks fun as it has a non pressuriesed portafilter)

any thoughts on any of these???

Gaggia cubika plus for £20 on gumtree?

The gaggia baby will produce a perfectly good espresso. Frother isn’t very good though.

I had a DeLonghi Icona (I think). Literally never got a decent coffee out of it. Not sure if it was the boiler the grinder or what, but it was always over extracted (in taste).

Currently gone the other way and gone full manual (Flair), now waiting on a 3D printed adjuster for the grinder to try and improve the grind level so it’s finer as the last shot didn’t even get above 2 bar of pressure when it should be 7-9.

Essentially no matter what you always end up looking for new stuff and tweaking, it’s like bikes, but with extra caffiene!

Been reading the http://101coffeemachines.info/saeco/poemia/ website and now erring on a Gaggia Gran or Gaggia Viva even tho (shock horror) it has a preasurised portafilter!

i think i have an older version of hte last one and i really like it

What size portafilter?

This is in the mix too
https://www.johnlewis.com/de’longhi-ecp35-31-espresso-coffee-maker-chrome/p2603305

The problem with home machines is that, with the exception of the pricier models, they’re always horribly compromised. As a simple rule, small, cheap machines will have virtually no temperature stability. This matters because temperature is one of the factors that has a great influence on espresso extraction. When it’s all over the place you’ve got very little chance of being able to consistently produce a decent espresso.

I’d look for the machine with the biggest boiler you can find, as boiler size greatly improves thermal stability. The downside is that they take longer to build up to steam pressure when you want to steam some milk (this is why commercial machines have separate brew and steam boilers, or, on older or cheaper commercial machines, a large steam boiler and heat exchanger driven groupheads).

I’d also look for something that takes commercial sized baskets – either VST or IMS. Pressurised baskets are absolute rubbish, and cheap, non pressurised ones aren’t much better.

This said, your grind quality will make far more difference than your machine, so you need to budget for a good grinder. Espresso, being extracted at high pressure in a short period of time, is much more fussy about grind consistency and fineness than other brewing methods.

JP

^ Gah! don’t come around here with your “facts” and “expertise”!

Whats your opinion on the sage/breville models – are they any good? Including their grinder?

I really want a Rocket, but I think one that’s a bit more user friendly (and a bit less flash) might get a bit more use from Mrs B

Gaggia Baby and Classic are identical inside. Well, the older ones are. Tonnes of spares available online and easy to take apart and service at home.
You can get a Rancilo steam wand and fit that. The stock Baby one is pants.
Regarding temp control, if you can operate a screwdriver, you can fit a PID controller to stabilise the temperature. Cheap as chips on eBay. I can help with that if you like.

It uses standard size filter baskets so you can use IMS or VSD shower screens.

But as said before, the grinder is more important! Have you got one?

Here’s mine, painted black. PID controller is at the bottom with the the red and green digits.
My home made touch screen with its own PID algorithms and brew control is up top.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QhcvTNqTVc152qYf8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QhcvTNqTVc152qYf8

that is epic!
see how i get on with the delonghi – brand new for 90 quid!

PID controller is at the bottom with the the red and green digits.

Tell me you didn’t put derivative control on temperature!

I wouldn’t buy a 2nd hand coffee machine unless you know it’s been cleaned well or hasn’t had a hard life.

Whats your opinion on the sage/breville models – are they any good? Including their grinder?

I have had a Sage ‘Barista Express’ for about 18 months. It gets used about 5/6 times a day, so a conservative estimate would be around 2,500 double espressos – saving a heck of a lot on take away coffees! It hasn’t skipped a beat in all that time. I have changed filters, cleaned and flushed it when necessary.
The grinder is really good, though the machine is sensitive to the grind (which is a good thing right?) so if you change beans regularly you have to adjust the grind to get the pressure right so you might get a couple of duff pours until it’s dialled in. The grind is the only adjustment you have on this machine.

This matters because temperature is one of the factors that has a great influence on espresso extraction. When it’s all over the place you’ve got very little chance of being able to consistently produce a decent espresso.

*heathen alert*

i think, unless you are a raging coffee nerd, the above may not be noticeable to most. Its like saying the milk frother is rubbish – if it froths milk what more is there?

My wee cheapo one produces better coffee than all but hte nerdiest of coffee shops. Which for me is perfect. the milk froths and the coffee is tasty and hot?? people that come round comment on how nice it is.

i’m not in a competition so what more does one need?

This said, your grind quality will make far more difference than your machine

I’d also question this as i’ve now stopped using my burr grinder for a quicker blade grinder as i really didnt notice any difference (apart from the noise from teh blade grinder and time it took to get a usable batch of coffee to put in the machine)

GAGGIA CLASSIC PRE 2015 (The good ones at less than £200)

KRUPPS BURR GRINDER

GAGGIA CLASSIC PRE 2015 (The good ones at less than £200)

The Gaggia Classic 2019 model looks 👍👍👍

*heathen alert*

+luddite

This matters because temperature is one of the factors that has a great influence on espresso extraction. When it’s all over the place you’ve got very little chance of being able to consistently produce a decent espresso.

*heathen alert*

i think, unless you are a raging coffee nerd, the above may not be noticeable to most. Its like saying the milk frother is rubbish – if it froths milk what more is there?

My wee cheapo one produces better coffee than all but hte nerdiest of coffee shops. Which for me is perfect. the milk froths and the coffee is tasty and hot?? people that come round comment on how nice it is.

i’m not in a competition so what more does one need?

This said, your grind quality will make far more difference than your machine

I’d also question this as i’ve now stopped using my burr grinder for a quicker blade grinder as i really didnt notice any difference (apart from the noise from teh blade grinder and time it took to get a usable batch of coffee to put in the machine)

If you’re happy with what you’re producing then that’s fine.

However, if you really can’t taste the difference between coffee made using a blade grinder and a burr grinder then I have to question your ability to judge coffee objectively. It’s a bit like saying you can’t tell the difference between a £100 Halfords BSO and Santa Cruz Nomad. If there really wasn’t a difference, do you think people in the coffee industry, like myself, would spend thousands of pounds on grinders? I’d be quite happy to sell my EK43 and spend the money on bike stuff or a holiday if that were the case.

As for milk steamers, they are generally poor on home machines. They lack power, which means that you can struggle to mix the steamed and frothed milk together properly. Because of this, when you try to pour latte art you’ll get a load of think hot milk coming out of the jug first, followed by a mound of over frothed foam. Again, if this is what you like (and it’s what you’ll get in most chain coffee shops), then that’s fine, but it doesn’t taste as good as properly steamed milk and looks terrible.

It is possible to properly steam milk on machines like the Gaggia Classic, especially if you change the wand to the Sylvia one, but it’s much harder than on a commercial machine. I know this because I’ve trained scores of people over the years, both in my shop and on their home machines.

JP

^ Gah! don’t come around here with your “facts” and “expertise”!

Whats your opinion on the sage/breville models – are they any good? Including their grinder?

I really want a Rocket, but I think one that’s a bit more user friendly (and a bit less flash) might get a bit more use from Mrs B

The Sage models are a step up from the Gaggias and suchlike mentioned on here. I’m not a massive fan of in built grinders, as you can’t control dose, and grind quality is never as good as a decent separate burr grinder. There’s not much else around at that price that’s any better, though.

As an aside, if anyone is at Wind Hill on weekdays, feel free to drop in to my warehouse for a (free) coffee – we’re only 10 minutes down the road and have a full coffee bar upstairs.

JP

Tell me you didn’t put derivative control on temperature!

Ahh, hopefully you can help then?! I’m trying to set the values with next to no idea what I am doing!

Well my Gaggia does my espresso and the Silvia does my expensive frothin but i will admit my art on top ain’t the best at least my flat white between 60-65°c in a hot cup is as good as any artisan Edinburg coffee shop although i do buy their beans sometimes. A good extraction is really good sight on an old Classic

What type of PID is it? If you’re using a light roast coffee then you need to get it to keep the brew boiler temperature at 93C.

As to the actual PID settings to achieve this, you’re best going on one of the home coffee sites and getting your instructions from one of the enthusiasts on there.

JP

25 posts in and no-one has mentioned a Ibertal MC2? I’m disappointed in you STW..

For what its worth, I have the above grinder and a Sage Duo temp pro. I am a bit of an espresso head, perpetually chasing the “god shot”. I have tried a few machines from a Lidl 25£ special, to a Rocket Gitto Evolution Pro (costing something around 1500£) While the expensive machines (Dual boilers, HX machines etc) are great for making lots of milky drinks, as they can steam milk & make espresso at the same time, with the right beans and a good dialled in grind, the above combo makes espresso that is comparable to what I make on a mates setup (Baritza virtuoso grinder & Sage Dual boiler coffee machine) while I was assisting in dialing it in.

TLDR: Sage duo temp pro is a great wee machine. If you can stretch to it, the Barista express (with a built in grinder) is a good machine too. The only issue would be long term durability, while the Gagias, ranchilios etc are fairly simple in their construction, they are also easy to fix, which may not be true for the Sage machines.

I have the Iberital grinder de recanvis and it’s huge, 650mm high with a hopper the size of a spacemans head. Makes loads of noise and it’s never had anything done to it in the 5 years I’ve had it. Postage was more than i paid for it

Ahh, hopefully you can help then?! I’m trying to set the values with next to no idea what I am doing!

Well in the industry I work in we never use derivative control for temperature (it’s a very slow moving variable so derivative control is unnecessary and will give problems). The actual settings are dependent on too many variables to offer advice. jjprestidge’s recommendation of looking at a enthusiast site would be best.

It’s my own PID, using the standard algorithms. One PID for steady state (waiting to brew and intra shot stability) and one for during the shot. That’s the one i am struggling with.

You can’t simply use PID values from another machine. You don’t know it’s temperature saturation rate, power of the heater element, location of thermocouple etc etc.
Just like you won’t recommend a setting for my EK43 as you don’t know my bean, roast etc. Those chaps on the coffee forums just use autotune. Something I could do but I want to learn how it works. And they aren’t striving for perfection! 0.5 degree error is too much for me. It’s all about learning something.
I could also just sell the EK43 and get a pod machine (using your pods of course!) and settle for average.

Anyway, starting lighter roasts with a hotter brew temp (to move them away from sour) and dark roasts with cooler water (to move them away from bitter) is the norm. Not the 93 degrees you mention for a light roast. I hope that was a typo on your part!

@gonefishin , I’m all ears if you can help!

93 degrees is the industry standard for specialty coffee – I’m not sure what your point is. If you entered the World Barista Championship you would find that the machine would be set at this level.

JP

I’ve been using a sage duo temp pro and sage smart grinder pro for the past couple of years, makes a far superior espresso base than all my 4 previous gaggia machines, the grinder is really easy to dial in right down to a 1/10 of a second grind time and it grinds the same amount time and time again for a repeatable espresso and dumps it in the portafilter without any mess, the sage duo temp uses a pid so the brewing temp is very stable to less than 1degree variation unlike the gaggias which can vary by as much as 10degrees, the milk frothing on the sage is also superior to the gaggias due to the super fast heat up and thermocoil steamer for always ready use. Gaggia is just a bit shit compared to the sage.

Since buying my machine a mate has bought a barista express but the in built grinder on the barista is not as good a grinder as the stand alone smart grinder pro unit, makes just as good an espresso though so if you like an all in one machine then it’s worth considering, another mate has very recently bought a sage dual boiler espresso machine and a smart grinder pro, a very accomplished machine as you can individually adjust pre infusion pressure and infusion time, brew temperature, system brewing pressure and dual stainless steel water and steam boilers-if you like to tinker and squeeze every possible parameter out of your beans then it’s fantastic but I don’t think it’s worth 4 times the cost of the duo temp pro, get the grind right and a good espresso will pour from the £300 duo temp pro just as well as from the £1200 dual boiler, with a lot less hassle 😉.

I don’t know much about coffee, but might be able to help with your PID tuning, I’ve worked on thermal systems for 20yrs.

Turn off the I and D terms, increase the P value until the temperature is steady, then decrease it until the temperature starts to oscillate. Record the Proportional term and the period of oscillation (in seconds).

Now set the terms to;
Proportional = Proportional * 1.75
Integral = 0.5 * period of oscillation
Derivative = 0.1 * period of oscillation

I hope that helps, for more info have a search for the Ziegler–Nichols method.

Those Krupps grinders linked above don’t seem to last long. I went through 2 in 2 or 3 years before moving to a Sage smart grinder. Hopefully this’ll last longer. The sage is far better though – much more precise.

I don’t know much about coffee, but might be able to help with your PID tuning, I’ve worked on thermal systems for 20yrs.

That would be grand, thank you! I did use the Ziegler-Nichols method for the machine when it’s at rest, waiting to be used. I have a delta T of about 0.5 degrees, not happy with that but it’ll do! It’s the slow reaction to the in rush of cold water into the boiler that has me stumped. We can take this to the PM if that’s ok with you?
Cheers

93 degrees is the industry standard for specialty coffee – I’m not sure what your point is. If you entered the World Barista Championship you would find that the machine would be set at this level.

OK. When I was last at the WBC, the barista gets to choose his or her temperature, between 90.5 and 96 degrees. This is then set and verified by an appointed person from the sponsored machine manufacturer. I do not know of a single barista worth his salt that does not fiddle with the temp to bring out the best in every coffee. That and grind are crucial, hence the need for a decent grinder.

And back to the OP’s question. You can fit an off the shelf PID easily and it will improve the small espresso machines drastically.

EDIT: Oh, it’s para 4.1 of the 2019 rules if you’re interested.

93 degrees is the industry standard for specialty coffee – I’m not sure what your point is. If you entered the World Barista Championship you would find that the machine would be set at this level.

OK. When I was last at the WBC, the barista gets to choose his or her temperature, between 90.5 and 96 degrees. This is then set and verified by an appointed person from the sponsored machine manufacturer. I do not know of a single barista worth his salt that does not fiddle with the temp to bring out the best in every coffee. That and grind are crucial, hence the need for a decent grinder.

And back to the OP’s question. You can fit an off the shelf PID easily and it will improve the small espresso machines drastically.

EDIT: Oh, it’s para 4.1 of the 2019 rules if you’re interested.

Sorry – I didn’t realise that I was conversing with an armchair expert.

You’re correct in that a temp range is now allowed in the WBC (it didn’t used to be). You’re totally wrong about every barista messing around with temperature – I know for a fact that Colonna and Smalls, fort instance, have been running within 1 degree C of 93 for most of their time in operation. But then what does a 3x WBC finalist know, compared to a home enthusiast?

To be honest you lost all credibility when you mentioned dark roast coffee, but I’ll let that go.

Please feel free to correct me if you are a coffee professional; from your tone I suspect you aren’t, as it’s always the home enthusiasts who get so combative about this sort of stuff.

JP

You might be lucky and find something here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum.php?s=24121bcb81011f3096d9f5ad6898da3c

“However, if you really can’t taste the difference between coffee made using a blade grinder and a burr grinder then I have to question your ability to judge coffee objectively.”

Genuine question. Are you saying that if I got a decent sack of beans, ground a small amount in two different ways (to an appropriate size), then made the same type of coffee drink with each and gave you a blind taste test, you would be able to:
(a) taste the difference;
(b) tell me which was which;
and
(c) you would prefer the burr ground one?

Does grind type really make this difference, or is it just brew consistency?

With a blade grinder you have no control over the consistency of the grind, you’d get a very poor extraction, it would be an absolute doddle to distinguish between the two if you brewed up and I’m certainly no barista, just someone who refuses to drink shit coffee whether that be instant shit or badly ground and brewed shit.

Well, I’ve learned something new today. Ta.