[Closed] More american states legalise cannabis in varying degrees.

I think it's 'cos they're gonna need it

It's very interesting: a lot of states (California, Colorado etc) are now in contravention of federal law. How does that work? They can't keep ignoring the issue. Either federal govt cracks down on the states or gives way to popular opinion. So far, however, for a country fighting an unwinnable 'war on drugs' they seem to be far more pragmatic than we are.

Think how much it's going to cost when the start whacking tax on it...

suburbanreuben - Member
Think how much it's going to cost when the start whacking tax on it...

corroded - Member
It's very interesting: a lot of states (California, Colorado etc) are now in contravention of federal law. How does that work? They can't keep ignoring the issue. Either federal govt cracks down on the states or gives way to popular opinion. So far, however, for a country fighting an unwinnable 'war on drugs' they seem to be far more pragmatic than we are.

dunno tbh, seems the genie is our of the bottle tbh. Pretty hard to go back on it. Particularly when it's getting voted through.

Though the republicans are in charge now and trump, so who knows.

Personally, I'd like the uk to hurry the **** up and take us out of the dark ages. It's going to happen eventually.

On the subject of what the US Voted for, More Weed, More Minimum Wages and more death penalty...

mikewsmith - Member
plain packaging, no advertising allowed etc

I wouldn't have a problem with that.

mikewsmith - Member
On the subject of what the US Voted for, More Weed, More Minimum Wages and more death penalty...

Yes, the article above lists those, was just wondering more, are referenda on issues like that fairly common place in america then? Or did these issues just happen to get chucked in this time?

There are known health issues with pretty much everything (alcohol, cars, guns, meat etc).
Wandering around residential Berkeley earlier this year, I'd guess one in five homes was growing their own...

There's a vast list of things to vote on at each election in each state (called propositions, pages of them). Not out of the ordinary. The TV advertising is pretty relentless too.

Re: the health issues, yes I can believe they are a possibility. But availability is total, so whether there are or aren't isn't really an issue to base legalisation on. It's a public health issue that's there regardless..

But availability is total, so whether there are or aren't isn't really an issue to base legalisation on.

There are known health issues with pretty much everything (alcohol, cars, guns, meat etc).

Yes, if its criminalisation wasn't stopping people smoking it and instead criminalising vast numbers of otherwise law-abiding decent people and providing income to serious criminal groups.

mikewsmith - Member
But availability is total, so whether there are or aren't isn't really an issue to base legalisation on.

I'd be surprised if you had to ask more than a few people if you wanted some. But even if you didn't you can legally buy seeds and cultivate your own, so yes it's available to anyone.

corroded - Member
There's a vast list of things to vote on at each election in each state (called propositions, pages of them). Not out of the ordinary. The TV advertising is pretty relentless too.

Here are the full results for California's propositions this year: [url= https://ballot.fyi ]https://ballot.fyi[/url]

cheers, must admit, the last 2 we've had have given me a somewhat negative view of them, but tbh I'm not that closed minded that, I'd throw my toys out the pram and never consider it. I'm still unsure whether I would like to see them regularly introduced here. Could be persuaded either way tbh, I would be open to arguments for and against.

btw i guess the issues are decided on a state by state basis and unique to each? Are there federal level referenda too?

Marijuana won more states than Hillary 😆

If you can wreck your lungs and become subject to all sorts of nasty diseases with tobacco, I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to do it by smoking dope either. With the added advantage of turning into a boring twerp who laughs at stuff that isn't funny, can't stop eating and turning your brain into porridge along the way...

Personally, I'd like the uk to hurry the **** up and take us out of the dark ages. It's going to happen eventually.

In 2011 the Home Ofiice, on behalf of the PM said to a select committee:

[i]"We have no intention of liberalising our drugs laws. Drugs (sic) are illegal because they are harmful — they destroy lives and cause untold misery to families and communities."[/i]

Drugs are illegal because they are harmful, Aye good yin. What's thee tax take on alcohol and tobacco? I guess that'll be ending soon? 😆

So would you legalise tobacco today?

I wouldn't and I also wouldn't legalise alcohol as the affects of alcohol are not limited to health, they also cause a lot of social problems and dependancy issues that affect your whole life (whereas tobacco doesn't)

However, as those things are legal and always will be it seems strange to delineate between a loads of drugs that all only do you harm.

In 2011 the Home Ofiice, on behalf of the PM said to a select committee:

"We have no intention of liberalising our drugs laws. Drugs (sic) are illegal because they are harmful — they destroy lives and cause untold misery to families and communities."

As I'm sure you've notived quite a few things have happening in Westminster since 2011.

I think it will happen, we often follow the US, our current drug laws are a product of their 'War on Drugs'.

There are a few crack showing, there has been a debate in Wales about it's use for medical reasons and 'Sativex' a drug made from it, just with all of the fun bits takes out has been approved for use - it costs a bloody fortune of course, which is quite sad really considering really it's made to avoid anyone with MS actually getting a bit high.

Personally, I don't take any drugs, I don't smoke and I very rarely drink, but I know proibition doesn't work.

Lots of people smoke weed, that's a fact - we produce so much of it in the UK now we actually export it (Go UK Plc!).

They're not harming anyone, but we say it's illegal and they face the wrath of the law if they're caught (not that that wrath amounts to much these days)

It's big business too, all that money, untaxed, untraced, moving from our economy into the criminal economy.

Users, using unknown, untested and unrated drugs.

The Police tearing around the place looking for growers and dealers, The Crimal Justice System processing them, the prisons holding them.

Seems terribly wasteful to me.

i didn't know they were having state by state refereda, it seems on a range of issues too.

Yes - as above, there are always loads of things to vote on. And also loads of other minor elections at the same time, like county Sherrif and such.

That's why there are big queues at polling stations.

Can't see this being a good thing. The cannabis now is lethal. The old stuff fine, you could probably smoke yourself silly and still be fine. The new stuff is a mental health epidemic waiting to happen. Not that we don't have one of those already.

dogmatix - Member
Can't see this being a good thing. The cannabis now is lethal.

yes, all weed is all exactly the same, there is no choice, it's mega skunk or nowt.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/jacob-hooy-cbd-oil-60008899 ]worth a look maybe for a CBD product available in a mainstream UK store... I'll be trying some[/url]

LOL dogmatix... have you considered changing your name to dogma?

they destroy lives and cause untold misery to families and communities."

By that rationale we can ban the tory party too!

dogmatix - Member
Can't see this being a good thing. The cannabis now is lethal. The old stuff fine, you could probably smoke yourself silly and still be fine. The new stuff is a mental health epidemic waiting to happen. Not that we don't have one of those already.

dogmatix - Member

Can't see this being a good thing. The cannabis now is lethal. The old stuff fine, you could probably smoke yourself silly and still be fine. The new stuff is a mental health epidemic waiting to happen. Not that we don't have one of those already.

Sounds like you're saying we need some kind of regulation / grading system.

As I'm sure you've notived (sic) quite a few things have happening in Westminster since 2011.

You'll have noticed that the Tories are still in power though, right?

nothing's going to happen anytime soon, 1) there's nothing like enough public support for it. 2) The Tories have no appetite for it. 3) if Labour raised this as an issue, the right wing press would go absolutely bananas.

This is a great video that goes into the detailed reasons why cannabis needs to be regulated.... It's even by CNN so that should help people of a certain persuasion to take it more seriously

I must admit I haven't researched it, but I watched a Newsnight special a year or so ago and the stuff I saw being sold was all pretty heavy stuff. This was retailers in america being interviewed. I saw lots of choice, but between different types of high THC produce. Newsnight really didnt have an angle and weren't going down a negative route. I am not sure they even brought that up as an issue. I haven't smoked for over a decade but the strong stuff was just coming in when I was still smoking and it did start having an effect on me. One of the reasons I gave up. If legalisation led to weaker stuff being the norm, like old style grass, I would be all for it. As it is I don't want my kids being caught up in it. I know kids from the area I grew up that have issues and I am concerned about their mental health for the future. Also, I completely get the hypocrisy with regards alcohol and tobacco. I suppose you could just legalise it and let people fall if they can't handle it. I really am not saying it will be the end of the world and saying it should never happen. I am not a ban it all dude. I am just worried it could screw some people up.

maybe I should just have a smoke and chill 😀

try this for summin a bit more sciencey 🙂

dogmatix - Member
I must admit I haven't researched it, but I watched a Newsnight special a year or so ago and the stuff I saw being sold was [b]all pretty heavy stuff[/b].

Aye, but that's a product of prohibition, with the lack of choice. And to be honest, to make an analogy, it's like the difference between, beer and wine(I wouldn't even use spirits in that anaology, and the beer and wine analogy is one you can only take so far, they are far more dangerous than the strongest of weed, for a multitude of reasons).

If you've strong stuff, just be more conservative in your use. It's not like the stronger stuff has more dangerous chemicals in it, just a higher percentage of THC, it's not inherently more dangerous, worst that'll happen is you'll be sick, more likely, you'll just fall asleep.

(tbh a bigger concern would be the prevalence of soapbar, than strong weed imo. Least you know weed is weed. Soapbar was brutal stuff, thankfully, rarely seen anymore.)

There is the balance of THC/CBD that makes a difference in weed, but again, the lack of choice these lies at the feet of the authorities, so that is the prohibitionists fault.

It's still not going to cause your average person issues though, if you are susceptible to mental health issues it may do, but then again, there will be many triggers there. It's hardly like alcohol, other drugs, and in my opinion, more importantly, social factors are immune from causing issues there.

Re the medical argument. I support it's legalization for those purposes. But it's not my argument at all, so I don't use it to back up my case, I don't think I need to, my case is strong enough.

dogmatix - Member
As it is I don't want my kids being caught up in it

Neither do I.

dogmatix - Member

...As it is I don't want my kids being caught up in it.

a valid concern no doubt.

how does prohibition protect them?

seosamh77 - Member
Re the medical argument. I support it's legalization for those purposes. But it's not my argument at all, so I don't use it to back up my case, I don't think I need to, my case is strong enough.

Saying that though, if it was legalized for medical use. My trapped nerve pain would suddenly get a lot worse! 😆

I don't think I need to, my case is strong enough.

that's very true

But as a person that is myself personally susceptible to the negative effects of cannabis, I would very much like to see it legalised, and if not regulated and distributed by licensed retailers, then I would at the very least like to be able to grow a strain at home, with the correct ratio of CBD to THC to suit my personal needs..
And we should all have the right to be able purchase or be prescribed any of the medicinal products derived from cannabis that are available either here or abroad

That is why I have included the two videos here to support my argument, as they are the sort of thing that could be a very valuable and powerful tool in educating the reactionary prohibitionists about the dangers of keeping the current system

If I wanted to I could go and buy some weed right now this afternoon, as could anyone else over the age of about 10 years old in the UK... But I know that it would make me very ill indeed

Yip, that is ultimately what it all boils down to, yunki, choice. The government as it currently stands forces us into a very narrow market. Which is wrong on so many levels.

I could not agree more my friend

It practically is legal in the UK now. I'm always walking or cycling past people smoking it in the street etc (and car drivers too, although I generally report them as driving when high really isn't very clever).

I'd support legalizing it (never smoked)- if that's your thing: it's your body and people seem to be far more reasonable when a bit stoned when compared to people who are excessively "refreshed".

However, I'd also support the death sentence without trial or appeal for driving under the "influence", so it's a mixed bag over here.

It does [i]really[/i] stink tho.

😀

A question for somebody who knows about these things -

How come weed is seen as less of a health risk than tobacco? You're still drawing the smoke into your lungs. Is the smoke somehow more benign than tobacco smoke?

You smoke less of it in comparison to tobacco. It's still smoke though, so don't believe it causes no damage. It definitely causes lung irritation and can cause bad coughs. But there are also various less harmful ways to consume it. Edibles are good. I've not successfully put it in my e-cig as yet though, but I've only tried the once. I'll suss that eventually.

I'd guess there are differences in the chemical make up too when it's burned, but I'm not a Chemist, so I couldn't answer that with any authority. If someone knows, please, chip in.

You also have to be aware that's it's difficult to quantify, as by far the most popular way to consume it, in Europe, is in combination with tobacco.

'The cannabis now is lethal'

yes and no.

the yes is that i agree the pushers have progressively designed stronger and stronger strains and no doubt it can lead to mental problems in some people, the very least total paranoia everytime you smoke which with habitual toking this then is a norm for the user.

the no, and this is why i think legalisation is a good call, is that with regulation people can learn what they are taking. for instance if indica strains are better suited then the individual can choose that over sativa.

like wine basically, shiraz, when i drank, always gave me a stellar hangover even from just a glass or two so i knew to avoid it.

'It's still smoke though'

google 'smoke bubble' for a better alternative.

I've not successfully put it in my e-cig as yet though, but I've only tried the once. I'll suss that eventually.

Google weed vaporiser. Lots of results and options.

Was at a party and one girl had one. Was about the size of a large phone, but about three times as thick.

When drawing on it you couldn't taste much. A bit odd add there is no harsh taste, heat or anything. But when you exhale you get a nice tingly weed taste and very little smoke. The trick is not to inhale/draw on the thing too strongly as it packs a punch. One of the guys there turned quite green and needed a lie down.
Only problem with the vape thing is that it kind of spoils the social aspect of rolling and sharing a joint. Oh,and the cost... It was about 350€...! Not the sort of thing you can just throw when the Pozilei show up....

(#fourmonthsclean)

How come weed is seen as less of a health risk than tobacco?

lots of reasons, but it boils down to the difference between a rollie and a regular ciggie. more chemicals, more baccy in a regular ciggie and people smoke them in a different way.

Would have thought it a total non-starter just on the smoking aspect - public health policy has been one way traffic on smoking for years. I appreciate you can vape it, or garnish a pizza with it, but realistically the majority of people are smoking weed with tobacco. So legalising something that is [i]at best[/i] on par with a known gp 1 carcinogen and public health pariah sounds like a bong dream. At least with MDMA or something you can legit say it's harmless and it's just moral panic preventing a proper regulation.

I say would have thought, because the California judgement is massive, no question.

Alpine, aye, I know what a vaporiser is, that's a dry one. It's possible to fit exit liquid though and stuck it in it. Much more subtle and more like smoking a joint. Which is how I usually do.

It's pretty hard to research the risks of smoking cannabis, it'a either hardless / good for you or as deadly as playing Russian roulette with on one empty chamber depending on which side of the fence the source sits on.

Things to consider though:

It's not addictive, not in the same way as tabacco anyway. You won't automatically start smoking 20 in the normal course of your day.

You don't have to smoke it, there's a multitude of ways to take it.

You smoke less material.

Again legalisation makes it easier to take it more safely.

driving home this eve, I could smell weed really strong coming fro the car in front of me, you could actually see the car was filled with smoke as it was being driven along

how will legalising weed help?

by taking the distribution out of the hands of violent criminals

Ask any teenager if it's easier to buy booze or drugs. The answer is a pretty strong argument for legalisation on it own.

cozz - Member
driving home this eve, I could smell weed really strong coming fro the car in front of me, you could actually see the car was filled with smoke as it was being driven along

how will legalising weed help?

Help with idiots driving while stoned? It won't. On the other hand whether it is legal or illegal seems to be irrelevant to that particular problem, as you've illustrated.

Or at least make medical research a non taboo subject, it is getting better but its such a scientifically interesting plant that has such a stigma attached that people are seen as unconventional if they want to study it.

There's also a bit of a conspiracy theory that large pharmaceutical companies actively suppress research as they wouldn't be able to charge much compared to some drugs, as it's so easily produced, no profit = no interest. They might even loose money if a less profitable product outperforms a very expensive one.

Recently cycled through Colorado whilst doing the GDMBR, and was welcomed at the first place I stayed with a joint and can of beer 8)

My take on it from speaking to the locals is that there was an increase in usage by people moving to the state because of it. However this has stabilised. All the users I spoke to said that the quality and strength variety of the drug available has improved with legalisation massively. Abuse amongst young people hasnt increased.

Colorado got something like $150m in tax revenue from Cannabis sales tax, but this is only c. 1% of overall revenue, including income tax. It is however significant and $40m was spent on schools across the state with the remainder being used by state government for a variety of things including public awareness and education on drugs.

This revenue is the reason why neighbouring states are looking on with envy. Colorado has a population of 5 million, California a population of 40 million so revenues will be much higher.

As a counter to the hippy love-in on this, have a read of this interesting article on the impact this has had on the trade in heroin (and the leap in the heroin overdose death toll).

[url= http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a46918/heroin-mexico-el-chapo-cartels-don-winslow/ ]Esquire on El Chapo and the the Mexican drugs trade[/url]

Sobering stuff.

Andy - Member

Colorado got something like $150m in tax revenue from Cannabis sales

There's a study that reckons there could be up to a billion pounds in tax if legalised in the uk. I reckon that's probably a consrvative estimate, given alcohol tax is about 10 billion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cannabis-legalisation-marijuana-uk-1bn-a-year-in-taxes-a6918161.html

Which shows you the amount going straight in the the black market is immense. Can't for the life me understand why that is acceptable.

As a counter to the hippy love-in on this, have a read of this interesting article on the impact this has had on the trade in heroin (and the leap in the heroin overdose death toll).

Esquire on El Chapo and the the Mexican drugs trade

Sobering stuff.

Interesting article but i think the authour is letting his own personal involvement cloud his judgement, although he firmly hits the nail on the head with regards to the heroin epidemic in the US and that's the massive rise of people addicted to prescription opiates who then get their prescription stopped. The drop in imported cannabis i doubt is related, imported "brick weed" as it's known is considered poor compared to home grown stuff, the same has happened in this country, when i was young nearly all the cannabis available was imported hashish, now it's quite difficult to get hold of but home grown herbal cannabis is easy to get, we've not suffered a heroin epidemic, and that's because GP's in this country don't dish out opiate painkillers like smarties.

I agree with Seosamh77's logic and call for legalisation. I'm not so sure the outcome will be positive though apart from the increased tax revenue. A couple of reservations:

The criminal elements will swap substances and US GPs dishing out opiates isn't the only reason for the heroin boom. A few years down the line I expect to see the gangs that used to deal cannabis dealing something else which is probably more harmful. It was alreday the trend before legalising cannabis, I expect it to continue.

Personal experience tells me that whether people are drunks, heavy cannabis users, heroin addicts, cocaine users, XTC users, heavy smokers... or even life-long users of happy pills from their GP, they're a whole lot harder to live/deal with than people who aren't under the influence.

add to the fact, it was prohibition that created the mexican cartels in the first place.

There's an easy solution to the problem. Kill all their markets stone dead. The evidence is there, their cannabis market ended over night.

I would personally, support legalisation of all drugs. Not that I'd campaign for it mind, but by allowing the black market to run these trades, imo, that makes governments complicit.

Guess it's just a case of will people ever wake up to that reality.

Edukator, I don't want paint things as all rosey, and freely admit the is a negative side to drugs. Prohibition makes things much much worse though.

I think, in this country, though you do have a different situation from america, as mentioned above, cannabis is produced here, it's not imported so much anymore. So if you killed the black market, I doubt you'd get flooded with other drugs, not like there is opium fields in the uk, and I'd doubt all the houses getting used for cannabis farms would get turn into something else. cannabis is easy to grow, other drugs are much more involved to actually make.

A few years down the line I expect to see the gangs that used to deal cannabis dealing something else which is probably more harmful

Agreed, if we were to end the prohibition of all drugs these same people would end up dealing in dodgy cars or knocked off tech, criminals aren't interested in why things are illegal, just the opportunity to make money.

Bazz - Member
A few years down the line I expect to see the gangs that used to deal cannabis dealing something else which is probably more harmful
Agreed, if we were to end the prohibition of all drugs these same people would end up dealing in dodgy cars or knocked off tech, criminals aren't interested in why things are illegal, just the opportunity to make money.

So, legalisation reduces their market to punting dodgy dvds. I can live with that.

Dodgy DVDs or Coke, MD, Kéta, Rabla, LSD... . France is on the European mainland which means the historic supply routes are still going strong. Heroin use is increasing as the price drops and the supply chain develops. Pills at techno parties are so cheap that a kid can spend the weekend high on just pocket money

Having cannabis as a relatively harmless drug for kids to use with all the "thrills" of doing something illegal isn't such a bad thing. When you want something legalised think of the poor parents trying to guide their kids through the minefield.

Junior (Techno DJ, jazz and rock guitarist, socialite) has left home now. There were plenty of substances circulating when I was his age but the ease with which a vast range of stuff can be bought now does not bode well for the future mental and physical health of the population. I can only hope Junior says "no" to some of the stuff on the list.

In conclusion, cannabis whether legal or illegal isn't a major problem for me or most of the people I know. So legalise it, but don't expect any positive benefits beyond tax revenue as you'll create as many probems as you solve.

I expect no particular change tbh, barring the threat of criminalization being lifted, poor products off the market, the black market significantly reduced.

The harm of drugs, imo will probably be lessoned slightly due to poor products disappearing, but otherwise all the problems with drugs in a personal sense will remain.

I don't see legalisation causing any particular increase in usage even if it was just cannabis that was legalised. The import market for other drugs is already saturated imo. I believe leaving that in the hands of criminals is a crime in itself and leaves kids more at risk.

isnt the tax valued at around £350 million per week

closer to 20m.

Saturated at the current price maybe. Junior has already pointed out to me that getting high is cheaper than getting drunk, in a country where alcohol is cheap.

The economist in me could draw you pages full of graphs and ramble on about marginal propensities. I won't, make something people want to do cheap and legal, and they will consume more of it.

I see legalisation resulting in a significant increase in consumption among adults because that's what's happened in Colorado (but not kids apparently even if there are more problems with marijuana use in schools - and not forgetting it's still illegal for kids so they still feel they have to lie about it). I see cannabis related traffic accidents and hospital visits increasing because they have in Colorado (whatever the pro Mary Jane people say).

We don't have the same vision of what will happen but I'm still happy for people to light up legally, get drunk legally, smoke legally, jump off high places - with the usual proviso that they don't drive after, blow the smoke in my face or jump off places where there are others below them.

Ever considered moving to [url= http://www.euronews.com/2013/11/06/spain-where-drug-consumption-is-not-a-crime ]Spain?[/url]

Edukator - Reformed Troll
I see legalisation resulting in a significant increase in consumption among adults because that's what's happened in Colorado.

Relying on data from the national drug use survey, Colorado reported that nearly a third of Coloradans aged 18-25 in 2014 had used pot in the last 30 days, a rise of about 5% from the year before recreational pot was legalized.

The survey showed a similar spike in adults over 26. Past 30-day marijuana use went from 7.6% in 2012 to 12.4% in 2014.

For the sake of the discussion, I didn't know that. i wonder if it's an actual increase, or just a cause of normalisation of the drug making it more socially acceptable to admit it? Dunno, could be that people trust the supply more have more choice of milder strains etc and it is an actual increase, could be that people are happier to use it, knowing they aren't feeding the black market.. I'll let people make up their own mind about it.

Regarding driving and incidents like that, I'd be happy for there to be fairly draconian penalties for driving while stoned.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/21/uk-should-legalise-cannabis-adam-smith-institute-report

Adam Smith institute calling for legalization too. It's only a matter of time.