"Every action, has an equal and opposite reaction"

S'Newton's Laws innit?

Ernie thinks he chooses to be nasty……

You're not paying attention mate – I never said that.

I told dopey, "everyone I know is a right nasty ****". As it happens, I reckon I'm one of the nicest persons I know.
So you can imagine what the others are like…….proper vulgar foul-mouthed tesco-shopping degenerates.
They think I'm posh 😯

I probably am middle class but I dislike the idea of class. Didn't think I was especially pompous tho!

Seriously kinda, the freewill thing bothers me. The quantum computer Brain idea is attractive because could explain something that is otherwise mystical. I don't like the idea that I'm an automaton you see.

If I know I'm an automaton it doesn't change how I behave, because I'm an automaton. Horribly seductive idea but hateful.

I love the idea of evidence 🙂 For me the illusion – if such it is – is quite enough 🙂

Can't remember the name of the experiment or the scientist, anyone know about this?

Volenteer is put into a brain scanner, told to wave their hand at a random moment. Scientist can see from brain scanner half a second before they decide to wave their hand that they will wave their hand.

Freewill is indeed just rationalising what we are already about to do/have done.

andrewh – was on a Horizon programme a couple of months ago. That Marcus du Sautoy bloke. Who sounds very middle class, and so as ernie would have it, merely trying to impress people by being a professor of mathematics with a job to promote the public understanding of science.

Volenteer is put into a brain scanner, told to wave their hand at a random moment. Scientist can see from brain scanner half a second before they decide to wave their hand that they will wave their hand.

Doesn't it actually show that our conscious perception lags behind actual events, rather than say anything about free will or decision making?

Scientist can see from brain scanner half a second before they decide to wave their hand that they will wave their hand.

meaningless, as the "evidence" is filtered through exactly the same system that allows you to feel you did make the decision. And in this case though that of the "scientist", if he wasn't imagined. Everything you think you know beyond your own thoughts is conjecture. Also, the "when" is less important that the "what". If it takes place a second before you are aware of it didn't mean someone else did it, only that the nexus of thought that leads to an action might be skewed to time perception.

porterclough I think you might be confusing "people doing their job" with, "people who feel the need to impress others with their intellectual prowess". Just a thought.

Not sure that refutes freewilly tho just shows that our awareness of the choice is delayed doesn't it? Poop hang on that means there is a robot In My head making me do things.
My conscious mind is not responsible for my actions no?

(predictive text on the iPod gets a bit frisky sorry)

Not sure that refutes freewilly tho just shows that our awareness of the choice is delayed doesn't it? Poop hang on that means there is a robot In My head making me do things.
My conscious mind is not responsible for my actions no?

Well suppose you're playing tennis or something. Are you really making conscious decisions about what shot to play as the ball is hit toward you at 80mph by your opponent? I'd say not, and your conscious mind is mostly responsible for stuff like noticing that every time you play a certain shot you lose the point, so try something different next time.

predictive text on the iPod

Conclusive proof of the absence of free will right there – even your MP3 player knows what you're going to do! 😉

Make a case for the existence of free will…

easy done 😉 here it is played by my all time favourite,

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure. (Scott Adams)

🙂

Doesn't it actually show that our conscious perception lags behind actual events, rather than say anything about free will or decision making?

This sounds a bit like epiphenomenalism, which was one of my favourite branches of epistemology when studying this stuff.

My favourite analogy is that consciousness was like steam coming from a train. Brilliantly dated.

Ironically though, I think we can choose whether to go with freewill or determinism. It might seem as though determinism has an answer for everything, but it cuts both ways.

Ultimately freewill and determinsm are probably the same thing, and we're just asking the wrong question.

"even your MP3 player knows what you're going to do"

I know; I thought that was particularly funny (in a middle-class sort-of way)

"Ultimately freewill and determinsm are probably the same thing, and we're just asking the wrong question."

Oh gawd. A bit like particle v.s. wave then.

I suppose that if I want to argue a case for freewill, then I have to delve into the supernatural/mysticism/religion/souls etc or quantum computers to explain how it could exist. Determinism seems a simpler to understand (Occam razor) but seems incompatible with experience and social mores – why would you punish a robot?

It reminds of books by Kurt Vonnegut who seemed to follow determinism. His characters were powerless to affect events, usually ending in disaster of some sort and it's quite depressing!

In slaughterhouse 5, the time-travelling aliens explain that they have seen the end of the universe; that it happens because of an accident with a new kind of time-drive that destroys the universe. The lead human character suggest they choose not to invent the new drive. It's a concept which the aliens don't understand because they see all of time and know this outcome is inevitable.

Assume you have free will. If you are right, then well done. If not, then you had no choice in the assumption anyway.

There is a separate, and IMHO, much deeper argument to the brain/move/hand/delay scenario.

If I jab a pen into your leg, the delay before you say "Ow!" is about 0.5 seconds. However, if you chose to just move your hand, that happens to your perception instantaneously. What happened to the 0.5 second delay? That concerns me because it suggests that there is an aspect of my consciousness that is making decisions independently of me.

Note that the MRI does not come into this – there is zero delay between you deciding to do something and it happening, but theoretically there should be a 1/2 second pause. Where has that pause gone?

choices are governed by only three motives – fear, personal gain and sexual gratification – as we're constrained by these, we have no free will as such

fear, personal gain and sexual gratification – as we're constrained by these, we have no free will as such

you forgot ridicule 🙂

but I consider your suggestions to be hopelessly simplistic – what of altruism for instance ?

you gain praise and prestige by being altruistic or gain a feeling of self worth if done in secret, or a fear of wasting your resources….. you can file ridicule under fear

I think you moved you hand as directed by the automaton that is your subconcious. Then you rationalised why you did it. I wonder if consciousness is a feedback mechanism to programme our inner automaton.
I have long wondered if belief in reward in an after life permits us to perform altruistic acts. These then encourage reciprocity so that the overall effect improved community behaviour.

From personal experience I have been a lot happier since I've accepted faith in God as a justification for the altruism and moral position I have alway exhibited. When I was an atheist I really struggled with morality!

Anyway Im leaning more toward no free will.