When in desperate straights, decision making ability goes right out the door, what looks like lunacy to someone of sound mind and firm social footing, might seem like the only solution to the folk involved.
The drugs in all probability were originally an escape mechanism

clodhopper – Member
“Sorry, but they made a choice when they started using.
It is in society’s interest to help them get off the stuff, but the initial decision was theirs. This places them some way down the scale of ‘ill’ people who need help.”

It’s attitudes such as this, which show the depth of ignorance and lack of empathy that actually exacerbates the problem of addiction in the first place.

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

So someone who has chosen to take drugs and inevitably becomes addicted, knowing that they would become addicted, is as deserving of treatment as someone who gets cancer/Alzheimer’s or something similar through no fault of their own?

I didn’t say ‘leave them to kill themselves’ or call them ‘scum’ or suchlike. I just pointed out that, given a finite amount of resource, there are other places the resource should go first. There are plenty of people who have social problems who don’t choose to take drugs.

FWIW, I do think that addicts should be treated for their addiction – for the safety of others in society primarily, but also because it is the right thing to do. The point I was making was this is a result of a choice in most cases.

I disagree that addicts are less deserving of medical resources and treatment. You can’t choose to treat people based on whether you think their condition is self-inflicted. About one-third of cancers are caused by lifestyle factors and not just smoking. The risk of heart disease is reduced through making sensible lifestyle choices. Etc etc

I disagree that addicts are less deserving of medical resources and treatment. You can’t choose to treat people based on whether you think their condition is self-inflicted. About one-third of cancers are caused by lifestyle factors and not just smoking. The risk of heart disease is reduced through making sensible lifestyle choices. Etc etc

For consistency. Smokers who contract cancer or heart disease or alcoholics who contract cancer or cirrhosis of the liver should also be further down the line than people who are just unlucky.

At some point you have to accept responsibility for your own lifestyle choices. Isn’t that part of the treatment for alcoholism, for example, anyway?

Having had the joy of a parent who was an alcoholic f*** em.

Quite. Lets put those injured in more dangerous jobs further down, and those who partake in risky sports too.

is as deserving of treatment as someone

Like people who fall off mountain bikes?

Once you start to decide who ‘deserves’ treatment the most, you really need to take a look at yourself.

It doesn’t take much to get addicted,

Addictions are a compensation for something you don’t just become an addicted as you had a bit of heroin.

and to add insult to injury, those burying the bone and setting the rules wouldn’t stand a f**king chance if they had to play. They mostly inherited their bones. And now pay others to add to their already gargantuan collection.

Until John Major’s government put a stop to all that nonsence

Mrs Daz was prescribing diamorphine to a select group of stable clients for about 10 years between 2000 and 2010 so maybe the Blair govt relaxed the rules? The thing that eventually stopped it was a nationwide shortage of diamorphine caused by one of the two factories which made it burning down which resulted in it being rationed for use in severe trauma cases and post-operative care.

You’re right though, in the post-war years ex-servicemen were prescribed diamorphine for their war injuries for about 20 years and lived completely normal lives until it was made illegal in the 60s.

Read this mans book, NOW, its available as an e book and im sure i could “Cough” “lend”
a copy…
Johan Hari, Huff Post

Hmmm…

Read this, then think about how addicts are made…

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/09/us-drugs-oxycodone-painkillers-florida

…and guess which group of drugs have become very, very popular of late in the NHS.

I’m not one for conspiracies, but it makes you think.

People will always seek to self medicate, Crikey, the real scum are those who seek to profit from it

[video]http://youtu.be/ao8L-0nSYzg[/video]

Or watch this…

Rat Park?

The Liverpool experiment

https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144657

Would you let them borrow your bike ?

I wouldnt let YOU , or anyone for that matter, borrow anything of mine without up front security first

Does that make you a potential skag head?

Having watched a once popular boy at school take the wrong path and become addicted I know how easy it can be

He even asked the nicest lad in the school, Roland to nick £50 from the arcade to feed his habit

He started robbing stuff from school to pay for drugs but Mrs Mcklusky found out

Just say ‘No’

dannyh- I totally agree that we should all try to take more responsibility for our own health, but that’s different to deciding who should or shouldn’t get treated based on whether you think they deserve it or not.

so you are saying that there are ten times as many dogs as bones

well that aint gonna work

If they can knock out a good riff on a Telecaster they’re OK

I understand that addiction is a horrible thing.

I understand that you can become an addict through any number of circumstances, from accident to life has dealt you a shitty hand and you need to self-medicate.

I understand that what addicts need is help and support.

But at the point where you know your best friend has gone on holiday so you’re jemmying his window to boost his stereo, you’re not an addict, you’re a ****.

Most IV drug users I’ve met (through working as a Dr) are very troubled people. Often in a hospital environment I’m sure their personality changes somewhat – they’re secure and safe and people are looking after them. So my perspective is possibly a bit skewed, but I don’t think there are many people who choose that lifestyle.

If a lion could speak, we couldn’t understand him

I can’t really imagine what it’s like for these people, most of whom have very different backgrounds to mine. So it’s best not to be judgy.

If you can’t see the tragedy in people stealing a charity box, then bringing it back empty to apologise I feel as sorry for you as I do for them (and for the recipients of the charity box).
That’s not evil, it’s simple desperation.
For what it’s worth, I think the OP appears to have a pretty decent understanding of the situation.

Often in a hospital environment I’m sure their personality changes somewhat – they’re secure and safe and people are looking after them.

Thats interesting in itself, in the setting I am aware of, hospital staff have to be very weary of addicts. They have usually ended up there because they got injured trying to get money to get drugs, or have ended up there after being attacked by the dealer.

They can come in with a leg dangling off, ask for methadone because they need it, and then steal some stuff, and walk out with their leg still hanging off. They really dont want to be there, or care about who they harm to get out.

Some people are viewing it from the perspective of people who have volunteered to go rehab etc, which are a very different group to those not in rehab, or are quite dangerous, not very nice people. Yes I get that they need help, they were all nice people once etc. But anyone is very naive if they think they can have a reasoned conversation with smackhead wanting their next fix.

don’t blame the drugs, plenty of addicts still have morals and don’t resort to stealing charity boxes to feed their habit

don’t blame the drugs, plenty of addicts still have morals and don’t resort to stealing charity boxes to feed their habit

Obviously, there aren’t enough charity boxes for all the addicts…Some addicts steal from their friends and family. Some addicts sell all their possessions. Some addicts quietly amass huge debts. Some addicts remortgage their house. Some addicts sell their bodies for money. Some addicts are rich enough that they don’t have to degrade themselves to feed their addiction, society often praises them for how cool they are.
It’s not the drugs though…

Especially this day and age where publicity and experience is rife especially concerning heroin, it still baffles me as to why anyone gets involved with it.

I don’t know of anyone who has been through the mill with that sh1t and come out saying it was a worthwhile experience! It destroys the mind, the body, families, relationships. A horrible horrible horrible drug.

I feel so sorry for people who fall into the heroin trap. Its upsetting to see people wasting their lives like that.

10/10 for your attitude though OP.

“But at the point where you know your best friend has gone on holiday so you’re jemmying his window to boost his stereo, you’re not an addict, you’re a ****.”

Heroin/Crack addicts are driven by such desperation, ‘normal’ morals and ethics get quickly forgotten when they are in need of a fix. Addicts rarely mean to harm others, but they just can’t see anything past their own needs. Of course, some addicts will be horrible nasty ****, just like with anyone else in society. But the vast majority are just desperate people. They will take advantage of the easiest opportunity to make money to buy drugs. They won’t see your stereo as a cherished, precious thing in the way you do, they’l just see it as having a value which can be traded for more drugs. If the drugs were actually made freely available, they wouldn’t have to resort to crime. Indeed, many studies and pilot schemes have showed that if you provide the drugs to addicts for free, it actually has a positive economic effect on the rest of society.

It’s clear some people on this thread really have little or no idea about the nature of addiction, and no experience of Heroin/Crack addicts themselves. The sensationalist tabloid hysteria is clear proof of this.

You just realise how depressing the world actually is when you see the comments on here and all the anecdotes generally towards this sort of thing. I suppose its down to personality too is it not proven that some people are far more predisposed to addiction be it anything from sex to booze. I doubt I could ever be a alcoholic five pints and I’m literally stuck in bed all day after being sick or just really ill…. In many respects I’m glad it does this as I like the feeling it gives me sometimes drinking.

Its a complex problem and has been around a long time, how long has alcohol been consumed in the world, drugs also? One of the earlier posters on the thread mentioned Portugal and the stance they have taken a far more liberal approach. I suppose time will tell how effective that is but the initial signs are fairly good. Its obvious the American/UK type of approach is clearly not working.

I think it basically boils down to do you want a modern society who accepts drug addicts and help them ie give them free drugs and offer a carrot over a stick philosophy, or the hard line USA type stick broken over the back and lock you up for four years when your ill with a terrible dependency. Cost is irrelevant too as it will probably be way cheaper to supply drugs like heroin which are not expensive per se and probably a lot cheaper than prescription drugs for general health problems! Add on to that prison sentences, Police time lost, drug dealers milking money and proceeds going to fuel other crimes. Try the carrot just to see how it goes, stuck up and pompous politicians are living in the dark ages sometimes.

it still baffles me as to why anyone gets involved with it.

Because out of all the drugs out there it’s pretty cheap, relatively safe (yes, really), and most importantly is able to allow the user to forget about their troubles and their horrific life situations for a brief period which other drugs can’t do as effectively. What’s more baffling is how some people in these horrific situations manage to stay off it.

A horrible horrible horrible drug.

True, but it has a reputation far worse than the reality. The main problem with heroin is it’s addictiveness and it’s low lethal dose, but these can be easily managed. Alcohol is actually a much worse drug to be addicted to. Heroin addicts can lead relatively normal lives for decades, where alcohol addicts will be lucky to last 10 years and will have irreversible health problems. Interestingly a lot of heroin addicts don’t drink whilst using heroin, and a lot who get off heroin end up turning to booze and end up with worse problems.

This movie is really worth watching to understand how addicts behave…
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/adam-paul/

The OP made me think of it straight away.

Theres some incredibly compassionate and well thought out responses on this thread and then there is the usual ill informed knee jerk reactions that i’d expect to see touted on the front page of a tabloid.

FWIW I’ve lost 3 good friends to heroin, all due to OD after coming out of short term Jail sentances for petty thefts and as such they did not any get any treatment whilst inside nor any support when they were released, one was found dead in a dumfries toilet, one was found by his mother in her bathroom and another was found in his bedroom at home. I could name another 5 folk i know from our area in Galloway who have OD’d as well over the past 20 odd years.

I do have another very close mate who we managed to raise the funds to send him abroad for Ibogaine treatment, he now works for a charity providing support for addicts coming out of jail and is the most positive and genuinely nice person i know, it is possible to treat addiction and i hope there is a massive shift in our drug policy soon – there is any amount of quantifiable research out there that shows our current policies are not working.

Someone else posted this podcast earlier on in the thread but it is worth posting again.

Say Why To Drugs Podcast with Scroobius Pip and Dr Suzi Gage

all due to OD after coming out of short term Jail sentances for petty thefts and as such they did not any get any treatment whilst inside nor any support when they were released

A very common scenario. My mrs had quite a few clients die in her time and a lot of them were the result overdoses after being released from prison. They’d go out and score and massively underestimate how much resistance they’d lost in prison so would OD on a dose that was still way below what they were taking before they went inside. Where possible she used to go into prisons to see clients just before their release date so she could warn them about the risks of overdosing and get them back into treatment the minute they came out. That policy alone probably saved a lot of lives.

I’m pretty torn on the issue, I’ve spent some time (friends of a friend) with both crack and heroin addicts. There’s all different types (not exactly surprising), ranging from those that just don’t care/think society owes them a living and chose to do what they like through to others who got sucked in a low point in their lives and as it only made things worse they can’t get themselves out of it.

The main issue I see at the end of the day is you have to give them an alternative they want, none of those I’ve spoken to enjoy being a drug user but (especially with heroin) they enjoy the relief it gives them from the monotony and struggle of their daily lives. If you just get them clean but change nothing else then the majority of them will go back to using as being clean just means being more aware of the crappy state their life is in.

That said I also know a couple of them have gotten clean, got a job and started to sort things out but eventually just decided it was all too much hassle/stress/effort and gone back to the ‘easy’ life of using (it’s not easy but you reduce what you have to worry about each day). Until society (supported by technology etc.) moves on to a point most people don’t need to work to support themselves (and there’s plenty of resources to support them not working) then you have to draw the line somewhere and say if someone isn’t willing to contribute to society when given opportunities to do so (and mental health etc. isn’t a factor) then society shouldn’t be obligated to support them. I think these people are the minority though but they’re the ones Daily Mail readers etc. focus on and assume to be the ‘normal’ type of user.