Currently having a debate with my builder about whether we should should apply for listed buildings consent for some alterations to the kitchen in my grade 2 listed farmhouse. We’re planning on ripping out the ceiling to take it up to the rafters, and putting a couple of velux windows in. He’s of the opinion that once you invite them round it’ll open a can of worms and they’ll start poking their noses into other work that’s been done and make it difficult. He’s not the only one either. It seems everyone round here does what they want without getting the conservation officers involved.

Anyone got any experience of dealing with conservation officers? If we got the work done and then they get wind of it and decide we needed consent but didn’t have it, what are the implications? Could we have trouble selling the house in future? Would we have to undo it? Fines? Put in the stocks outside the town hall?

If we got the work done and then they get wind of it and decide we needed consent but didn’t have it, what are the implications?

Its illegal to carry out any building works on a listed building without listed building consent.

Clicky-Thingy…

You should get consent for anything that’s not a repair or like for like replacement. Certainly installing velux windows would be a real no no without consent.
You will as you suspect have issues selling without proof that consent was given and the risk of having to rip it out later and revert back if they won’t give it retrospectively.
How the discussion goes will depend on the personality. Some are fine, some are a nightmare. I’ve experienced both ends of the spectrum.
Be aware through that they may insist on specific style of Velux (conservation style) if that is more appropriate which may cost more or not be quite what you’d like if given a free choice.

Jeff

The maximum penalties for carrying out unauthorised works to a listed building are currently a fine of £20,000 or six months’ imprisonment on summary conviction and an unlimited fine or two years’ imprisonment on indictment.

Yeah, I think I’d want to get them involved vs that penalty

Get them involved – that work certainly requires consent and should be no issue getting it – apart from the potential hassle if they find out what about when you sell – the buyer is going to want to see the listed buildings permissions

As I thought. To be clear I’m on the getting consent side of this debate, but everyone I talk to round here just laughs at the idea. Next question, what if we took he kitchen ceiling out but didn’t put the windows in?

We own a Grade 2 listed cottage. Apply for consent, it will be cheaper in the long run.

Have an informal discussion about whether veluxes are possible, if it sounds a PITA then just do the kitchen without consent and leave the veluxes.

EDIT: though actually I think you’d get conent for the internal work easily enough.

I have worked with them in Scotland – a lot of arguement about the size and placement of the veluxes I wamted to put in. Ended up with a compromise – smaller than I wanted but bigger than he wanted and not fake “heritage” mullioned sklylights

You will need consent for anything the affects the appearance and or character of a building. Both internally and externally.
Removing the ceiling will also need LBC if it changes the height and appearance.

The reason why everyone is against you getting it is that if the CO decides to visit and spots your neighbours alterations they will all be in a lot of trouble..

Btw, you cannot get retrospective LBC. You can get a Certificate of Lawful Development, but it is not LBC. If I was to buy a house and it was Listed, I’d want all the proof before even considering it.

If the Veluxes are on the rear and wont affect the character of the frontage, then you should have little problem.

We as a construction company have the local conservation officers around the country involved at the earliest stage of anything we do that affects a listed building (probably 50 times a year)

We do as they ask and nothing else

Most are lovely people just wanting the best for our building stock

Some are power mad idiots

It doesn’t matter what you or your builder/friends think. These are very powerful people and you would want them on side if at all possible..

The reason why everyone is against you getting it is that if the CO decides to visit and spots your neighbours alterations they will all be in a lot of trouble..

Ha! Hadn’t thought of that. I could suggest blindfolding them at the bottom of the hill and smuggling them in in the boot of the car 🙂

If the Veluxes are on the rear and wont affect the character of the frontage, then you should have little problem.

They would be on the rear, and barely visible from the road unless you hang over the wall and look. I’ve got no problem with spending money on proper materials etc. I’m actually trying to restore the place to a more historical character by removing some of the stupid things previous owners have done, like installing a false ceiling in the kitchen when there are 200 year old wooden beams and rafters above it.

Planning permission for small stuff is a grey area.

But listed building consent is a completely different set of regs. It’s an absolute must. Mess it up and it’s a criminal offence as has been said. And for small stuff it won’t be hard to get, but you do need to know why your building is important from the listed building register. If your building is listed because it has the finest kitchen ceilings in the county then you can’t put veluxes in but if it’s all about the front windows or the porch etc. Then you will get ok for veluxes they just might want a heritage design it certain colours. One the joys of being a custodian of the nations heritage.

It really depends what the property is like, we have cottage which is listed but it is only the front half that they are interested in. As far as the early 20th century rear is concerned, we can do pretty much what we like although we still need permission. As far as the front is concerned, we unfortunately have to get permission and the Conservation Officer is a zealot. However, my understanding is they don’t have the final say, the planning committee does, so don’t let them spec the build because they will gold plate what is required. Find someone with experience of dealing with them so you know what type you are dealing with.

For example, I bodged a repair to a brick panel, which the CO said required consent so I applied retrospectively, he didn’t like what I had done but was neutral about it in his advice to the Planning Committee. It was therefore approved. If I have done what he wanted it would have cost me a few thousand, rather than £20.

Ask the owners of the Carlton Tavern* what they think

* recently upheld that they have to rebuild it brick for brick after a stealthy demolition job

So one thing that makes me nervous is that since we moved in we’ve had the following work done without getting consent (yes a bit silly but we were in a hurry):

– Replaced horrible plaster-cast fireplace and gas fire with a york-stone fireplace and woodburner
– Installed new windows and french doors in kitchen which are like-for-like as the old ones were falling apart
– Put in stud wall and new door to separate one large upstairs bedroom into two.

Any of that going to be a problem? I’d rather leave the kitchen as it is than have them come round and tell us to remove/redo any of that work.

I suspect the huge problem with be when you come to sell the property as that’s when it will get flagged by a solicitor and you will have the fun and games when they report it.

As for is it OK; here’s the prosecution guidelines: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7663/listedbuildingprosecutions.pdf

Round here someone installed a conservatory without consent. Their son had to take it down and fix some other problems before selling the place when he inherited it. I certainly wouldn’t do anything that obviously requires consent such as new windows.

Just to put it into context a family friend of mine lived in a village in the cotswolds which is pretty much all listed. He had the rectory (grade 2). Wanted new windows/doors and CH. Modern stuff would have cost him about 20k. The heritage stuff basically doubled the price.

One of the neighbours in a similarly listed building (but half the size) had done the work without approval. The original stuff (custom made but modern style) was all ripped out at his cost and replaced with “approved” stuff, plus putting it right as well, then he had to redecorate again. The total bill was north of 50 grand….

Never found out if he got fined or not.

As most have said: yes to listed building consent. It is a criminal offence to alter a listed building inside or outside without permission. Discuss it with your local conservation officer if you can.

Are you in a National Park!?

Bear in mind if the listing is sufficiently important it’s not local government that will do the enforcing. As a member of the Sullivan family found out in Essex. (Sunday Sport, Sullivan). That cost him a fortune in delays, inspections and materials.

Are you in a National Park!?

Nope. An industrial mill-town in the Pennines.

Short story. Back in the 50’s my architect dad bought a half timbered property in a small village – it was actually a terrace of thee farm workers (tiny) cottages.
He knocked them together to make one house and we lived there until 1970. Fast forward to a couple of years ago and the house is now grade 2 listed and my sister buys the house back. Turns out that previous owner took a ceiling out making a living room open to the rafters.
Planning dept found out, blew a fuse and the then owner had to put everything back as it was at considerable cost.
Sister is now undertaking a massive program of refurbishment, including replacing every panel in between the timbers. Dad would be happy.
OP, nobody should mess with a listed building and don’t even think about doing work with consulting the conservation dept, it will cost you dearly if you do.

I did lbc for windows, doors and guttering years ago. From memory it depends what your listing says as to what is a problem. My listing only mentioned external features, so internals were no problem. I got permission to switch to plastic guttering and to change window pane layout without a problem. If you include plenty of pictures and diagrams of what is there and what you plan, and explain why you’re doing it (eg improved ventilation, reduced maintenance, sensible stuff rather than installing a home sauna) then I don’t think you’ll have a problem. Only people likely to object are neighbours or parish council. If you can show something similar has been approved elsewhere it shouldn’t be a problem. Likewise if it looks like you’re being sympathetic to area and building. Check your listing- the precious bits might be less than what you think.

Usually better to have a chat with local conservation officer, just to be sure. We work in a national park and on many listed buildings so end up making relationships work as we don’t want to mess that up.
As mentioned above think about the future and any risk when selling (it’s your risk not the builders).
Plus with reference to the listing notes (on Historic England site), the WHOLE building is listed, the items are just for identification, I believe. Hence clarification at start of project is useful.

– Replaced horrible plaster-cast fireplace and gas fire with a york-stone fireplace and woodburner
– Installed new windows and french doors in kitchen which are like-for-like as the old ones were falling apart
– Put in stud wall and new door to separate one large upstairs bedroom into two.

I doubt they will be a problem. Grade 2 normally just concerns the external (anything) and any major internal works.

I did it properly and got consent for my boiler flue in bristol. Officer just pocked his head around the back to look at the property, didn’t want to come in. Approved no problem and just submitted all the drawings and explanation myself.

I am not sure a builder who is encouraging you to ignore the rules is someone I would want to use.