Certainly undeniable proof of something very profound. What I’m not sure of, but there you go.

Do Christians not believe in Allah because of a lack of evidence?

Ignore this question if it’s tricky….

I’m ignoring because it has a false premise. Christians do believe in Allah.

Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran

Yes, the way it says in the bible. I’m not sure what is says in the Koran, do tell me

No, I don’t, but as the subject of ESP is tested more, and those test results begin to show that it works, I would be able to change that view.

Good then you need to meet Jessica Utts

http://www.stat.auckland.ac.nz/~iase/publications/icots8/ICOTS8_PL2_UTTS.pdf

There’s a video from ICOTS8 floating around out there as well

My dancers are better than yours Yunki………..

ps. how do you do the pic link thing?

Um, a basic understanding of the concept? Like, for example, the idea that infinity isn’t just the biggest number you can count to?

Sure, I accept that it’s more than just numbers, but that’s not my point as you’re probably aware. We accept all sorts of things without hard evidence. For reasons I don’t understand, people that don’t believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence.

Christians do believe in Allah

Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?

Waiting…..

and no, I don’t need to meet Jessica. I believe in gravity, but I don’t need to meet Newton, I believe in road safety, but I’m not having Tufty* round for tea either…

* whoops, showing my age now…

Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?

Waiting…

Answered above, but in an edit, you may have missed it.

Why don’t you tell me specifically which bit of the Koran you are referring to in terms of the the christian belief in Allah, then I can answer the question.

For reasons I don’t understand, people that don’t believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence

If there is no evidence for a belief, then it would appear rational to question that belief, no?

Some people think that people with different colour skin are inferior to them, there is no evidence for this, and therefore grounds to question it as a belief. Religious belief is not special, not above question, so, given the opportunity, I would question it.

Oi ! We’ll have no dissing of Tufty. I was a fully paid up member of his club.

Sorry to be flippant about ‘worshipping’ a craven image 😳

and no, I don’t need to meet Jessica. I believe in gravity, but I don’t need to meet Newton

so you mean you do believe in ESP?

Anybody ever read ‘Small Gods’ by Terry Pratchett?

One of the main premises of the book is that many gods exist, but some are more powerful than others due to the number of people that believe in them. If no one believes in a god, then the god ceases to exist. And if gods don’t live up to their end of the bargain (answering prayers etc) then people stop believing in them.

Why don’t you tell me specifically which bit of the Koran you are referring to in terms of the the christian belief in Allah, then I can answer the question.

I am as unfamiliar with the Koran as you are, and so am unable to answer that, bit like you are…

Tell me about the bits of the Bible that demonstrate Christian belief in Allah then.

so you mean you do believe in ESP?

I don’t have any great belief in it, largely because I am unfamiliar with it and the evidence for it. I have an open mind on the subject.

I am as unfamiliar with the Koran as you are, and so am unable to answer that, bit like you are…

Tell me about the bits of the Bible that demonstrate Christian belief in Allah then.

Then why are you even posing a question you don’t understand?

I’m asking for enlightenment, and to make the point that a ‘Christian’ belief system is exclusive, one true god and all that.

…except that all the other one true gods have an equal claim. Which makes things theologically a bit tricky, wouldn’t you agree?

For reasons I don’t understand, people that don’t believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence

I don’t care who believes in god, my in-laws believe and that is their choice. My GF believes, sort of, and that is her choice too, but I don’t go round telling you that you are going to die the most horrible death and suffer for eternity because you believe in something I don’t.

I don’t want to believe and I certainly don’t want to worship something that if it really exists, has caused me and the people I love so much pain.

If there is a god and I really don’t believe that there is, it is not the benevolent overseer of the world that most religions portray them as, it’s a guy in a lab coat, wondering what happens if he pushes that other button!

If there is no evidence for a belief, then it would appear rational to question that belief, no?

If there was evidence for a belief it would be called a fact, no?

Would you not agree that having belief or faith in something is the only mechanism we have for things we can’t comprehend? If you can come to terms with this concept, you might find believing in God is a rewarding experience.

If there was evidence for a belief it would be called a fact, no?

I’d agree with that to a certain extent.

Would you not agree that having belief or faith in something is the only mechanism we have for things we can’t comprehend?

No, I wouldn’t agree with that. Just because we don’t comprehend something doesn’t mean we have to have belief or faith. I’m not sure about how mobile phones work, or radios for that matter, but that dosn’t mean I have to have either faith or belief in them. It just means I don’t understand them.

If you can come to terms with this concept, you might find believing in God is a rewarding experience.

I’m not sure how this would help. I’m pretty sure that your faith is a fundamental part of who you are, not something that you can switch on or off, not something you can choose to have or not have.

My absence of any similar faith is equally as fundamental to me; I simply can’t decide to believe in the same way I can’t decide to be 5 inches taller or less attractive*; it just won’t work…

* this may actually be an article of faith, or a blatant lie…

crikey – a good reply, that.

For me, faith was something of a gradual thing – or at least something that sort of grew. I suppose there was an initial so called “leap of faith”, but that must have been born out of some sort of desire to believe in God in the first place.

..except that all the other one true gods have an equal claim. Which makes things theologically a bit tricky, wouldn’t you agree?

This is why I don’t favour one particular god, just seems disrespectful to all the other ones.

Mind you some of the popular ones are a bit blood thirsty for me.

The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”
[al-Maa’idah 5:33]

“And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off (from the wrist joint) their (right) hands as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allaah. And Allaah is All Powerful, All Wise” [al-Maa’idah 5:38]

I’m fascinated by religion, partly I think because I don’t have that faith or belief. I am a bit naughty on these threads, and tend to feel guilty about having a dig.
From my viewpoint I struggle to understand how faith and or belief can fit in with an otherwise rational and logical life. I think I probably think about it in the wrong way, a bit like seeing an illusionist just to work out the trick instead of watching the show.

I see having Faith (I have faith in God), having Religion (i cannot as yet claim one although i was educated CoE) and the belief in science to all co exist, yes there will always be crossover and conjecture but its only when you take an extreme point and try to apply it generally in science, faith or life that things come undone and turn to conflict.

The only thing that can stop you believing in ether yourself or your Faith is yourself, no one can force you, except hypnotists, who are clearly witches, and we all know what we do to witches don’t we! 😉

For me personally, my faith in a loving, caring God becomes very real when science can no longer provide a solution to a problem (cure if you will) but prayer does. Having faced situations and crisis in my life that to the world looked hopeless, for me, that’s when I see God stepping in and my faith is strengthened through answered prayer. According to every Doctor and Consultant my wife should have died from cancer but I believe that God cured her when the only hope we had was in trusting Him.
Can’t prove it scientifically, don’t feel I need to either as my wife is a living testimony, as it were.
This is just my two penneth but felt I should contribute.

I was bought up a Catholic and lived 3 miles from Knock as a boy over 40 years ago. My extended family has a priest and nun, and my cousins include an episcopal minister, as is his wife, a deacon who dropped out of the church in the last year before ordination and a third cousin who is to be ordained a priest next year. So a lot of religeon in my life. My parents still go to mass every weekend but I have no interest in organised religeon these days as I do not believe in a greater being (but I still hate Rangers!). I acccept I could be wrong though.

I try to live a ‘good’ life however and the 10 commandments are not a bad start as a way to live a life – despite being from the OT. Thou shall not steal, or covet your neighbours wife for instance……

I don’t imagine ever joining an organised religeon again but respect other peoples choices.

Good luck with your quest MrNutt where ever it may lead you. I will look out for a change of user name to RevNutt or similar;-)

Respectfully it is shame your god does not choose to save a number of equally devout people with cancer and I suspect the Dr/consultant said it was unlikely not impossible – is she the only person alive with this cancer? My uncle was given 4 years to live 12 years ago – no one believes in god I take that as proof of my atheism. I am glad your wife is alive but surely it would be better if your divine deity eradicated cancer for us all?

Whilst I have a scientific understanding of a variety of things, I don’t dismiss the possibility of there being a God

Nor me I just ask for the same standard of proof as I do for all other things It fails badly on this front
Re is it the same god
The Koran the Bible and the Torah all have the old testament so I would say yes they worship the same god but in a different way they would probably disagree

I agree the 10 commandments is a good moral code especially the part about not coveting your neighbours wife or SLAVES !! A god would endorse slavery I think – perhaps thatis what you mean when you say god is too mysterious for words. So you cannot prove it exists nor explain its reasons for doing things and you wonder why people question your faith.

crikey, your latest post indicates that you may just be being mischievous, however here are a few points

You have a pop at IanB for “making based on a programme off the telly from a while ago” and ask that you’e knowledge must be based on ” Um, a basic understanding of the concept?” but then continue to argue and ask questions about Allah, the koran and the bible, when you clearly have no idea about any of these thing, not even based on a ‘program off the telly”. That’s bad form.

When i first asked if you believed in ESP, you were fairly unequivocal

i then asked you inspect the evidence, from Jessica Utts, you close your mind to it and refuse. Somewhat ambiguously explaining that you don’t need to meet Newton to believe in gravity. This leads me to ask again if you believe in ESP, and now you

… don’t have any great belief in it

has something changed?

You also claim that I am unfamiliar with the koran as you are. I doubt this very much. For although you pretend to know something about it

To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?

It is clear you know nothing of it. If you ask me for the evidence as above then tell me, it what way it says in the koran where? As you are sure that it prescribes a way of worshipping Allah in there.

Your point about ‘one true gods’ having equal claim demonstrates your lack of knowledge and understanding of these religions. I don’t mean that pejoratively. I use it only to illustrate that you shouldn’t be trying to make points in an argument in which you know little about the religions and what they believe. Here we return to your point about needing to have a ‘basic understanding of the concept’.

Just a summary before we move on. Hope you can clarify some of these issues.

Nah, can’t be bothered.

Thought not. Normally i would see that as laziness, however given the complex web of contradictions you created, it would require a supreme effort to disentangle yourself.

Other than than, good effort, you had a decent run.

Bless you.

Just checking in to see if anyone from either side of this has been converted?

No? Thought not.

Ah, but it seems that some have learned something

I’ve learned that Charlie isn’t very good at internet debate. 😀

That was never my intention Joolsburger, but if this thread encourages open minded consideration of ether side then that can only be a good thing right?

Stephan Hoeller !!

I’ve learned that Charlie isn’t very good at internet debate

Pah! I won you!

Tyger: The problem with using “miracles” to justify faith is that you overlook the millions and millions of times throughout the ages when people have prayed for one and nothing has happened.
For me it’s the fact that in any natural disaster it’s always thousands of poor and usually very devout people who end up dead that leads me to believe that there is really no one listening up there.
I have however, no doubt that religion has a huge capacity to make people feel better about themselves or their loved ones, so even if it has no basis in fact, it has meaning for the individual who believes and I for one am quite cool with that.
Life has no meaning; or equally it has whatever meaning YOU choose for yourself to give it!

Nah, Charlie, I’d be happy to concede a draw because as you rightly point out, I am arguing about things which I have little knowledge and even less experience. STW in a nutshell, basically!

Hah! you concede! Loser!

But really, do watch the Jessica Utts video. It’s pretty long but if you understand Bayes, you can probably skip the first chunk.

Ok, I’ll have a look.

My thoughts about ESP are that it’s rubbish, but if the evidence shows differently, and is good reliable and repeatable I will accept it.

Has James Randi looked at it? I believe there is money to be won..

It was a meta-analysis of lots of ESP research, the evidence came down in favour of ESP

If the evidence is good, I would accept it, although I would admit it would pain me to do so…