As such, it proves nothing.

You need to accept that you can’t have proof.

I have no problem with that. I just thought it utterly pointless Sky releasing the data to the press. If there was some form of ‘power passport’ that could be shown to be robust and managed independently (sealed power units given to riders before the stage and collected on the finish line) then yes, it’s useful, otherwise, it leads to the same conjecture as before just with a veneer of it being valid because you’re talking about ‘facts’ (ie numbers) rather than ideas regardless of the reality that it’s largely meaningless.

If there was some form of ‘power passport’ that could be shown to be robust and managed independently (sealed power units given to riders before the stage and collected on the finish line)

They already have that:

That’s exactly what these things are; they are currently only used as GPS transponders but given that all power meters communicate via eithe ANT+ or bluetooth, the ability to capture that data (and transmit it live) is on the bikes right now.

There are a couple of snags. Osymetric chain rings act a little bit like a foreign currency where the exchange rate is not 1:1 (so 1 watt measured on non round chain rings does not equal 1 watt as measured on round ones). The other is that you need to zero the unit each time you use it. So for example I use a Stages power meter. If I don’t do a zero offset calibration at the start of every ride I get the kind of power readings that would suggest I’m a first cat rather than a borderline third cat.

Absolutely but it’s not being done, is it? FWIW, it doesn’t particularly need to be done live. They’d also need to be on the same system across the board.

And as you’ve pointed out, there are calibration issues that would need to be worked out. I suppose that could be part of the sign on process though at races.

As the title of this thread is “Le Tour doping/speculation/rumour/conjecture thread” I’ll throw one out there.

TVG, bad blood bag. Rest day transfusion, not taken well, means low red cell count and generally feeling rubbish with no energy. Based on nothing more than him dropping out combined with his association with Lance.

Ooh! Good conspiracy theory! 🙂

BMC – run by Jim Ochowicz who may or may not have known all about USPS’s doping regime.

Absolutely but it’s not being done, is it?

No, quite, it’s not. But you know what, before we even get there, the sport could make a really big advancement in ethics by, you know, just enforcing the rules as they are now.

Why is Astana still competing in the world tour series? Five riders have tested positive for doping and they still haven’t had their license revoked.

And then their knut of a DS, Alexander Vinaknutof a convicted drug cheat himself, then goes on record to say that if Nibali doesn’t pull his finger and get results he’ll fire him, whether he has a year left on his contract or not.

I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that known cheat would basically light the blue touch paper of the rocket that is the principle motivation to cheat but we could at least ban his team from racing.

No-one else in his team seem affected either so it MUST be something only he took/ate. Quick flight over the Spanish border, dodgy transfusion, flight back, sorted. The 90’s are back.

Well I think Astana still competing, abhorrent as it is, is good news in the sense that the sport is actually following proper processes. Admittedly I reckon those processes/rules need to be changed to allow the likes of Astana to be chucked out much more easily (it’s not 5 cases for the Astana Pro Tour team as you probably know even though really it should be considered that way) but it’s still a positive change that the governing body is actually following its own rules and is surely a basis for a more ethical sport in the longer term?

I just thought it utterly pointless Sky releasing the data to the press.

I don’t think there was much else they could do – you had tin foil hat physiologist saying on TV that he’s watched the stage with a pen and paper and worked out that Froome was producing EPO-tainted levels of power, their choices were to either continue the denials or try and do something about it. “Over 7w/kg, you say? Actually it was 5.78 – thanks for coming, good night”. What else could they do?

Admittedly I reckon those processes/rules need to be changed to allow the likes of Astana to be chucked out much more easily (it’s not 5 cases for the Astana Pro Tour team as you probably know even though really it should be considered that way) but it’s still a positive change that the governing body is actually following its own rules and is surely a basis for a more ethical sport in the longer term?

Yeah, I agree with that. And as much as people have raised about Sky’s use of TUEs, every step of it has been done within the bounds of the rules. Sure, get rid of TUEs and stop it from happening, but don’t critical of Sky for using them if it’s legal.

You may be right on the power data – I suppose it will win some over.

But I disagree slightly on the other point – Sky have said they’d be clean in word and deed and suggested that they’ll be whiter than white. For me at least, Tramadol and potential abuse (but within the rules) of TUEs isn’t keeping to that.

I guess the problem is, if everyone else is using “finishing bottles” with Tramadol in them do you say “It’s legal so lets go” or “Lets hand the competition an advantage” ?

If you’ve said you’re going to be whiter than white you don’t.

Or you do but you make clear you are because that’s transparency.

Sky undermine themselves by not being transparent even when they don’t really have something to hide.

If you’ve said you’re going to be whiter than white you don’t.

There’s no blot on their copybook, the TUE thing was entirely within bounds.

Lunge – that is a fantastic theory. Got to hope it isn’t true though

Not if it’s being abused – eg compliant doctor prescribing a drug for reasons that aren’t genuine so that they can get a TUE for it and a legal benefit.

Besides tramadol wasn’t TUE, it’s just not on the list of banned substances even though many would suggest it’s an omission by circumstance rather than deliberate

In both those cases, you’re making an assumption without evidence that the intention is nefarious and in neither case has any rule been broken. The automatic assumption that something nasty is at work is Armstrong’s legacy, it’s sickening really. 🙁

heh, glad I wasn’t the only one who thought TVG was suffering from a dodgy bag.

Well, tramadol wasn’t being used for theraputic use – it was a finishing aid – I don’t think there’s been a claim by Sky that it was used for a headache or similar. For me, that’s not whiter than whiter and their handling of the questions about it was anything but transparent.

Regarding the TUEs, I’m not saying that doctors prescribing for fake reasons IS definitely happening, I’m saying that Sky originally claimed that they would withdraw riders if a TUE was necessary. Then they’ve got Froome on an inhaler which he never mentioned previously and a steroid in order to finish a race.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/sky-uci-scrutiny-chris-froomes-steroid-tue-127529

What has happened to the team’s belief that TUEs should not be sought for riders in competition?” David Walsh wrote in the Sunday Times newspaper. “Team Sky like to portray themselves as the most ethical team in the peloton. The evidence says otherwise.”

Sky’s general manager, David Brailsford said last Sunday, “we’ve always stayed within the rules, so we’ve got nothing to hide.”

It’s certainly the legacy of the Armstrong era (to be fair, not just Lance) but then we probably should be sceptical to some degree when the likes of Astana, etc continue to race. Similarly, if Sky are going to make the claims they did then we should subject them to scrutiny.

And your next bit of mindless speculation, Geraint Thomas is a genetic experiment by British Cycling to make the perfect bike rider, one with great aerobic capacity, hard as nails and and excellent endurance to all combined with a strong anaerobic system, they almost succeeded but failed to remove the crashing gene.

Adam Blythe came out of the same experiment but came out lacking the required mental toughness to be as good as he should be, see also Josh Edmundson.

LOL.

It’s not speculation, it’s comment on the situation and Sky’s handling of it. As I’ve said, I struggle to believe that they’re cheating but there are certainly enough things out there that concern me from a logical and factual perspective.

Just getting back to this after watching the Tour today – I see the physiologist feller has been quoted thus;

Sallet said: “I’d be happy if he is unique but we need more information.”
The head of Athletes for Transparency, a not for profit anti-doping agency, told BBC Radio 5 live: “I don’t say Froome is a doping athlete. If we have more detail, we can easily say it is a unique profile or doping,
“It could be a unique profile, classical doping – using haematological drugs, like EPO – or mechanical doping which is using a motor in your bike. People need to know.”
And Sallet pointed out that he was only focusing on Froome because he is in the yellow jersey.
“If the yellow jersey was a French athlete, we would put in the same energy,” he said. “It’s not against Froome. We want to understand.”

I think and accept there must be a lot of context missing from that quote, in terms of whatever calculations he’s used to arrive at his conclusion, but two things;
1 – If he wants more information from Sky to prove Froome’s innocence, he needs to say what info would convince him – at the same time he must accept that, by insinuating Sky’s data does not sufficiently prove the normality of Froome’s performance, his own figures can equally be disregarded as lacking a sufficient degree of proven detail to prove his argument.
2 – More broadly, is it to be understood that, by definition, the person in the yellow jersey is displaying a superior athletic ability to their competitors and must therefore prove they’re not doping and don’t have an engine in their bike? Because that way madness lies. Froome’s performances have been superior but they have NOT been dominating. How come Quintana’s not been getting piss flung in his face? He ain’t that far off the pace, he MUST be doping (or have a motor in his bike), right?

“If the yellow jersey was a French athlete, we would put in the same energy,” he said. “It’s not against Froome. We want to understand.”

What utter tosh, I’ve just done a quick Google search of “Sallet Nibalie”, “Sallet Contador”, “Sallet Quintana” and “Sallet Astana” and funnily enough there’s no results. Pretty sure Nibali was in yellow last year for a couple of days……. Yes none of them are French, but when was the last time a Frenchman was in yellow.

Sky are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, considering that their relative equanimity in the matter is quite impressive!

There’s an issue with Sky and it’s not just they’re a bit hypocritical. Something about Team Sky, be it the sponsor, the coming in and changing the way things are done has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. I think there’s a good point in the INRNG article today about how so many journos bought the whole Lance era doping completely that they and the new breed are overly keen to prove they’re cynical and chasing what they think of as dopers whether they have any evidence or not.

lunge – Member

And your next bit of mindless speculation, Geraint Thomas is a genetic experiment by British Cycling to make the perfect bike rider, one with great aerobic capacity, hard as nails and and excellent endurance to all combined with a strong anaerobic system, they almost succeeded but failed to remove the crashing gene.

So they’ve created the perfect mtber??

Five Live Interview with French physiologist

This is really interesting. The scientist does actually come off well and it’s apparent that there is an apples and oranges issue here. He, the French physiologist, is saying that Froome’s power to weight of 7 watts/kg is based on maximal aerobic power whereas Sky’s figure of 5.8 watts/kg is based on average power (up the climb where Froome gaped his rivals).

The French physiologist is saying that his figure for maximal aerobic power is indeed estimated, but the data that Sky have released is consistent with that figure (i.e. if you can average 414watts up that climb then the figure of around 470-490 watts maximal aerobic power is consistent with that).

Interestingly this guy says he is in complete agreement with the numbers that Sky have released.

Re welsh cyclist genetic experiments you might have a point there given Becky James & George North and Luke Rowe & Dani King

Luke Rowe & Dani King

Don’t tell Luke’s brother and Dani’s boyfriend, Matt Rowe, that Dani’s being bred with Luke… 😉

Jess Varnish and Liam Phillips, not Welsh but imagine the sprint potential their offspring could have. I believe Lizzie Armitstead and Philip Deignan are also dating, more good genes there.

It like the Soviet Union again (allegedly…).

Not to mention Laura Trott and Jason Kenny…

That’s all taking marginal gains to a whole new level. Talk about British Cycling playing the long game!

Read the excellent Faster – genes are where the new gains are at…

at least with the GT genes there is some media friendly/savvy included.

anyone backing froome for sports personality of the year popularity vote?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-check-froomes-bike-and-five-others-for-hidden-motors-at-tour-de-france

Ross Tucker tweeted

Post doping ban, Valverde’s best ever #tdf15 at front of the race inspires almost as much confidence as Gatlin at the front of the 100m/200m

NIbali said

I had never seen Alejandro Valverde in such form, he is stronger than ever.”

Is it any coincidence that that old guard have rediscovered their form once it became clear that nighttime testing couldn’t be carried out in France?

Seeing Valverde up there doesn’t bother me that much. The “big names” haven’t been firing on all cylinders this year. Nibali had a tantrum early on, Froome has just nipped a few seconds consistently early on, TvG has abandoned, Quintana lost time early on and Contador is clealry tired post-Giro. Valverde has just managed to be there or thereabouts consistently rather than set the world alight. If you look at the group he finished with today for example you can say he’s climbing pretty ok but nothing crazyily amazing. Gee is a cracking rider but when you think he has been up at the top of the GC until very recently it tells you more about the other big names failings than someone like Valverde’s “superhuman” ability IMO

Astana rider knocking a well known Spanish athlete 😉

Nemisis…doh