So utterly wrong but with logic like that? Might as well call you TJ and be done with it.

It does however seem so expensive it hurts. Hope my DSG (sorry, auto) box costs less when I get it done.

Oh wait, it will, I remanufacture them….

Utterly wrong where?

They are automatic, that is a fact, regardless of how they work inside.

I was wrong to claim I’d been utterly rogered though – just mildly rogered in a manner consistent with going to a main dealer, but that was my choice 🙂

I know it’s difficult for a computer programer to understand, 😉 but sometimes the physical properties of something can mean it’s not quite as per the dictionary definition.
A DSG box works in the same way as a standard manual box. The differance is that instead of a lever in the cabin pushing the selecctor shafts etc about, the flappy padle you pull on the steering wheel / inbetween the seats makes a relay shove an elctronic version of the gear lever while it presses an elctronic clutch pedal.
Due to this, the car can change gears by its self, however that is not the same as a normal, traditional auto box which works in an entirely differnt way.

That’s not even close to how a DSG box works but nevermind..

Automatic= working automatically.

A CVT is an automatic transmission and that hasn’t got gears!

Fuel filler flap on one of our cars stopped locking. Metal clip had 5 years of fatigue and bent rather than clicking into place.

First quote was nigh on 174ukp ( replace whole assembly, paint new flap, reassemble ). 30 seconds thought came up with view that I already had a flap the right colour so that bit of the job would be unecessary, 30 minutes on internet came up with a part number for the metal clip and instructions in Czech which I helpfully provided to garage. Total cost of parts 1.34ukp, paid the garage to fit it though so by the time they had dis-assembled and re-assembled and added VAT it still cost just shy of 40ukp.

Mind you I took Montague/Swissbike with me when I left the car and took the long route home via Ellerburn and Dalby so not all bad.

DSG and Autoboxes are totally different inside , DSG has mechanical gears which are preselected by 2 clutch packs . ie when you select 1st the computer selects second gear with the other clutch , when you change up with the optional paddles or let the electronics do it for you,it changes up lightning quick , then the 1st clutch is used to select 3rd gear in readiness, if you decide to do a cheecky down change it only takes a few milliseconds to sort it out. Its a very clever box. One way to see the difference beteween it and an auto is to see how it reacts to creeping up an incline in traffic. You can feel the clutch engaging and diengaging as you creep forward , an auto will just smoothly let you crawl forward or indeed allow you to sit on a hill with no brake applied. It is crucial to change the oil on both types of boxes, it wwill take about an hour as you have to check it a certain temp with diagnostic computer. The issue here is that you have chose to use the dealer , all you are doing is paying for all their leather couches , plasma TV screens , fancy showrooms and way to many managers. To be fair to them at least they seem to be doing the service properly unlike the UK dealers, We change pollen filters during services where app.as they clog up with traffic fumes and stop your blower motor working efficiently ie: clearing your windscreen ( common complaint – most pollen filters get forgotten about and strangle the incoming supply of air to the cabin.) Spend some time and find an english speaking independent but use the correct fluid , you’ll kick yourself if the gearbox fails and you never changed the oil.

If you don’t have to change gear manually its an auto box. its not an epicyclic gearbox with a torque converter. Nor is a CVT. However its still automatic not manual.

willy waving time,
I know completely different car (pug 306) but my service was £450
including all filters and oil, cambelt change, fan belt change and water pump
I love my local garage

sorry this is of no help to you,
but I thought I’d share

edit: it wasn’t £450 but actually £ 350

Probably cheaper to buy another 306.

My (then 13 year old) 1.9 Diesel 306 with 91K on the clock cost me £500 (to buy, not service).
When it needed timing belt changed, new injector pump, new rear dampers and had no heater exactly one year later it went for £350 with 104K on it. Not bad depreciation really.
Total cost of maintaining it was £40 for MOT and £10 for door latch and rear light cluster from scrappy to get it through said MOT.

Probably cheaper to buy another 306.

better the devil you know, even though mine is a bit of a lemon

DSG and Autoboxes are totally different inside , DSG has mechanical gears which are preselected by 2 clutch packs . ie when you select 1st the computer selects second gear with the other clutch , when you change up with the optional paddles or let the electronics do it for you,it changes up lightning quick , then the 1st clutch is used to select 3rd gear in readiness, if you decide to do a cheeky down change it only takes a few milliseconds to sort it out. Its a very clever box. One way to see the difference beteween it and an auto is to see how it reacts to creeping up an incline in traffic. You can feel the clutch engaging and diengaging as you creep forward , an auto will just smoothly let you crawl forward or indeed allow you to sit on a hill with no brake applied. It is crucial to change the oil on both types of boxes, it will take about an hour as you have to check it a certain temp with diagnostic computer. The issue here is that you have chose to use the dealer , all you are doing is paying for all their leather couches , plasma TV screens , fancy showrooms and way to many managers. To be fair to them at least they seem to be doing the service properly unlike the UK dealers, We change pollen filters during services where app.as they clog up with traffic fumes and stop your blower motor working efficiently ie: clearing your windscreen (common complaint – most pollen filters get forgotten about and strangle the incoming supply of air to the cabin.) Spend some time and find an english speaking independent but use the correct fluid , you’ll kick yourself if the gearbox fails and you never changed the oil.

Nice idea these new style autoboxes, in theory, sadly they’re pocket empytingly expensive when they go wrong, and they do, a lot.

The Toyota MMT version is particularly bad, as is Fords version. Fine when you still have the factory warranty, wouldn’t want to own one without though. Shame really.

I know it’s difficult for a computer programer to understand, but sometimes the physical properties of something can mean it’s not quite as per the dictionary definition.
A DSG box works in the same way as a standard manual box. The differance is that instead of a lever in the cabin pushing the selecctor shafts etc about, the flappy padle you pull on the steering wheel / inbetween the seats makes a relay shove an elctronic version of the gear lever while it presses an elctronic clutch pedal.
Due to this, the car can change gears by its self, however that is not the same as a normal, traditional auto box which works in an entirely differnt way.

Molgrips knows how the DSG box works but he is correct, it is an auto. It does function differently inside, but it is an auto. He never said it operated the same way as a standard auto, he was never under that misconception. Just because joe public might assume one auto is the same as the next auto doesn’t mean everyone does 😉 Might cross your mind not to jump to conclusions about people 😉

Think yourself lucky. A chap at work had a call today, from his Renault dealer. His 2yr old Renault went in for a timing chain issue. The engine had to come out to change the chain. 20hrs labour. Engine went back in & the problem persists. Renault have just agreed to put a new engine in. The bill…£8400. Luckily its under warranty.

Hmm, this whole side argument seems to have stemmed from molgrips calling it an automatic, but if you check what he actually said was:

it’s a DSG auto gearbox

which is pretty much factually correct (and means its oil requirements are different to a standard manual, even if not the same as a conventional automatic – but then he never claimed it was a conventional auto).

my service was £450
including all filters and oil, cambelt change, fan belt change and water pump…
edit: it wasn’t £450 but actually £ 350

Were you suggesting that’s high or low? Sounds very reasonable for including a cambelt change and waterpump on one of those – in fact I’d love to know what your garage is as mine’s due one (though I suspect that as it’s due a second change with 150k on the clock I’ll just keep on going and hope it doesn’t go on the principle I could get an equivalent 406 for less than that).

Thanks CK, yes I do indeed know how they work inside in broad terms, but I am still curious about a few things. The 6 speed one has what is described as a wet clutch – I am assuming this is in a bath of the fluid of which there seems to be only one type. So I am thinking it’s some very special kind of stuff that’s a lubricant but not in certain circumstances, like (as I seem to remember reading somewhere) they use in Audi multitronic boxes. Which would explain its cost. It undergoes some kind of change of properties when it’s squished into a thin film between two things.

The Toyota MMT version is particularly bad, as is Fords version

So how many manufs actually use these DSG style things then? Or something else other than the bog standard?

And when should I change my Passat for a 170bhp manual estate? Mrs Grips are you reading this? 🙂

Btw got the car this morning – it’s definitley smoother. Less grabby on the gear changes so they are smoother, and you can really tell in the car park. Also seemed a little keener to change down into 5th at moderate speeds, which is nice. Maybe they upgraded the software I dunno.

So how many manufs actually use these DSG style things then?

VW, Skoda, Seat and Audi all use DSG (Audi call it S-Tronic)

Ford and Volvo have Powershift

Ferrari and McLaren

Alfa Romeo have one now

BMW DCT

Off the top of my head, there’ll be more I’m sure.

EDIT I think Renault have one now as well

Pulling this back to the OP from arguing in the traditional STW style about the definition of an automatic gearbox 😯 , I had the same issue in the UK Molgrips.

VW phoned at 4:45 (when the car was due back at 5) to say “that’s the service finished, oh by the way we’re just going to change the DSG fluid, that’ll be £200 extra” or something similarly ridiculous.

I threw my toys out the pram and told them not to bother, before phoning round all the Skoda/Seat/VW/Audi dealers and independents in the area, before, you guessed it, going back to VW the next day tail between legs and getting them to do it. From what I can see everyone wanted a small fortune for it.

Cambelt and waterpump on my older Mk5 GTI was another matter, and was considerably cheaper at independent.

Yeah I started to calm down once I found that out Brycey.

I seem to have trouble with small independent garages. They seem to offer crap service in my experience and half the time I’ve got no confidence at all that they’ve done anything right. Plus my local VW dealer in Cardiff is actually pretty reasonable. £300 for a cambelt for instance, and for that you get quick service, a lift to where you want to go, a good customer experience and so on.

To be honest the only thing I can complain about here really is the lack of a warning. They said they needed to check the condition of the gearbox oil, it’d have been nice if they’d added ‘but be prepared, it’s frigging expensive unfortunately’.

To add to the list of DSG type twin clutch boxes

Mitsubishi
Citroen
Peugeot

But lots of others use single dry clutch automaticly operated manual boxes too

I knew there was a reason I serviced my own car…

Tools, haynes manual (got various ones – engines, gearboxes, electronics), and a day under the car.

Cambelt change, wheel balancing, MOT and welding stuff are the only things it goes to the garage for (to date anyway)

I serviced my own car until I realised I just could not be bothered. Oh and they don’t do Haynes manuals for all cars.

DSG – Porsche invented them for racing cars a long time ago but couldn’t figure out how to make them cheaply enough for road cars.

Adding to the list – most manufacturers now!

Didn’t know the DSG was a wet clutch, guess it helps as presumabaly there’s more wear than a normal dry clutch as one clutch is always engaged/dissengaged so probably suffers more wear. But………. motorbikes use wet clutches and they’re bathed in motorcycle engine oil* .

*which is made form distilled whitchcraft as it manages to be thin enough to allow high powered engines to rev, thick enough to work under pressure in the gearbox, and somehow allows the tiny clutch to work without slipping despite dealing with twice the power of the average family car!

When I said the DSG isn’t an ‘auto’ I meant in the sense that it doesn’t use the viscous effects of the fluid as a clutch, which is the usual reason for auto boxes costing more to change the fluid.

As for ‘everyones got their own version of DSG’, you’ll probably find it’s more along the lines of ‘everyones been shopping at Borg Warner’. In the same way as Fords very clever LSD in the fast focus’s (foci?) was in fact the same Quaiffe ATB unit fitted to pretty much everything since the sailsbury disk/clutch type LSD went out of fassion.

Anyone here actually changed the oil in a VAG DSG themselves or even seen it done??

no?

£200 is a bargain, you have to have an enormous special tool that extends above the car with complicated bleeding equipment on it, the fluid is £60, should you slip then that £60 will empty itself onto your driveway in one go.

if there was a cheaper way to do it properly then someone would.

Didn’t know the DSG was a wet clutch

The 6 speed ones are, the 7 speed ones are not, and are (presumably consequently) more efficient.

pictonroad – that implies there are hydraulics involved then I presume…

The German Garage will probably be charging you for disposal of spent fluids and parts.

That may be contributing to the total.

Issue seems to be German dealers know how maximise their margins. Have had my dsg serviced twice in a UK VAG dealer – first time was £129 the second time £149 for oil, filter and vat.

Don’t they charge you for disposal at home too?

But yes, stuff like this is expensive in Germany anyway, and Munich is expensive even within Germany.

Furthermore.

As you know, I’m an Automotive design Engineer. Cars are so much more durable now than in decades past, that dealers need expensive piddly jobs like changing transmission oil, just to pay all the staff….

I do not specialize in DSG, but I’d suspect that with the correct filtration, fluid changes shouldn’t be too frequent.

I’ve had the same with my Mondeo

” ooh, Sir. Your brake fluid is black as sin. You should really have that changed “

Oh yeah ?, how much.

“Err, ah, well, it won’t just be the fluid. We’ve found that the master cyclinder tends to go when the fluid is changed, so now we change the master cylinder too. Which means it will come too.. “

Nah !, forget it, thanks.

A month later I change both rear calipers, and the brake fluid is crystal……

I bought the 2.0 TDCi cos it had a cam chain.
Got 226K on the clock and still getting high 50s mpg and it just floats through the MOT.
I service it myself and only role the motor into a Ford dealer when the job is too complex for none workshop facilities.

The 6 speed ones are, the 7 speed ones are not, and are (presumably consequently) more efficient.

pictonroad – that implies there are hydraulics involved then I presume…

Not strictly true IIRC, there’s 3 boxes available.

The old 6-speed uses one big dose of fluid to do everything.*

The big 7 speed box uses 2 fluid systems, one of conventional gearbox oil, one of automatic transmisison fluid to cool the clutch.

The small 7 speed box uses a dry clutch and conventional gearbox oil in the box itself.

*I’m guessing this is what you have if it needed special oil as the other two realy are just manual gearbox oil.

No disposal charge only charge is for 6 litres oil, oil filter, labour and vat.

I seem to have trouble with small independent garages. They seem to offer crap service in my experience and half the time I’ve got no confidence at all that they’ve done anything right

On the contrary, I’ve used several small independents round here, and never had any problems – used to go to one who did things the old-fashioned way with a bit of bodging rather than replacing everything, but more recently have been using a Pug specialist who might not be that cheap, but is very good. Meanwhile the last time I took my car in to the main dealer they did a right bodge job, and I had to take the car back in twice more for them to get it right.

Cambelt change, wheel balancing, MOT and welding stuff are the only things it goes to the garage for (to date anyway

I’d recommend going to a garage to get the lower engine mount on a Pug changed – in theory you’re supposed to remove a driveshaft to get the relevant bit off to fit a new one, but I didn’t have the facilities to do that, so spent 2 days under my car attempting to press a new one into place in situ!

i love my DSG – and i’m happy to stump up the cost for the stress free crawl commute to work every day

Not strictly true IIRC, there’s 3 boxes available

Someone’s been on Google 🙂