I have an opportunity to move to Johannesburg for two years on a good UK salary. I have a young family (4 years and 4 months old) and so I have serious concerns about safety and crime….

Saying that it could be a great opportunity for us to spend a couple of years in Africa with plenty of cash to enjoy it..

Has anyone got any experience of living or working here? Even if it is second hand or just from travelling I would be interested to know what you think..

Of course this includes the quality of MTBing around there as this forms a major part of all decisions we make! (looks pretty flat from the photos I’ve seen)

This would also mean giving up the opportunity to move back to northern Italy (Lakes / Alps region) at the end of this year.

Up to this point I have lived my life based on the mantra of preferring to regret opportunities I have taken rather than regretting missing them, however with two ankle biters this may not be appropriate right now….

I was there 10 years ago backpacking, and it was pretty wild-west but we didn’t have any real trouble. I think it’s a fair bit more dangerous now.

I would go if I was on my own, but I woulddn’t like to be responsible for taking a woman there. Is it actually Johannesburg? Where abouts?

My friend’s sister works there, and from what I hear they live in a compound. Which is fine for security, but then if you want to get out and see the place you have to step outside that security.

That’s how I feel, there are probably people with more recent experience who feel that it’s perfectly safe and that the danger is all media hype.

i lived in south africa for a year when i was ten (and then eleven) when my dad worked out there for a bit. we lived in benoni (which i since found is regarded as an industrial shithole whenever i tell saffers we were there!) which is halfway between jo’burg and pretoria, and had an amazing time. went on lots of safari-type trips, amazing weather, unbelievable scenery. there is definitely a worry about crime – all the windows have bars at every house, for example, but we never experienced it firsthand, and i used to cycle to school every day with no probs so it can’t have been that bad!

did a lot of mountain biking with a club run from the local shop, they were all in awe of my young english skills!

and south africa is definitely not flat!

edit – as davey points out, jo’burg itself is seen as pretty highrisk but we very rarely actually went there so if you went i wouldn’t live in the city itself if you could help it!

We briefly passed through jo’burg on our honeymoon. Didn’t see anything in particular, but driving through downtown after dark made my spidey-sense tingle to new levels. It is definitely not somewhere I would choose to live.

I’d do it if I were you.

Worked there a lot mostly in J’Burg, Durban and Cape Town. South Africa is one of the best places in the world. Yep, its pretty messed up and not the safest of places…. but it is a truly amazing place.

There are areas which are notoriously bad, and generally people steer clear of them.

If that offer came my way, I’d take it and I have three young kids and a wife.

Northern Italy or Joburg – I know where I would live…

Hhmm… here are my opinions, sorry if they are a bit negative, but it’s what I think.

I have worked quite a bit with colleagues from Johannesburg, and got offered a job there also (which I didn’t take). I was not keen at all on living there, and the couple of friends who moved to Europe “temporarily” are not planning on going back. There are nice and relatively safe areas of the city (e.g. Melville) but for me the living style was still quite constricted.

Not sure about mountain biking, I think when you are out of the city (although it’s quite a mission to get out of) it’s better safety wise, but we still always had a gun with us when working in the field. That said, it’s an amazing country and (with money) there are some spectacular sights to be seen, just a very different way of living to the UK.

Personally, I would think northern Italy (süd Tirol?) is a better option…

cheers guys, the job is based in Joburg (haven’t interviewed yet but 99% sure if I did I would get the job), so I guess I would need to be in the city at least 2-3 days a week although my work includes a lot of international travel.

We would need to live within commuting distance of the city and I was wondering if there were any mountains in this area, I know there are some great mountains but don’t know if they are in the Joburg region?

Flatboy – do you remember how close to Joburg you were?

alpine girl – Northern italy – Lake Como / Maggiore area, north of Milan

I am no fan of cities so would work from home / travel a least a couple of days a week, just wondering if living a decent distance from the city would be safer / more acceptable for the family?

closer than i remembered, having just looked! – here you go:

I’ve been to SA twice on business, but often work on projects with two guys (one British, the other from New Zealand) who live in Cape Town.

Firstly, I think you’re right that you could afford a good lifestyle on a UK salary. Part of this would enable you to pay for good accomodation in a good area with good security. But it’s all relative.

I’ve never been to Cape Town but both guys I know say it’s a great place to live – fantastic location and a great lifestyle (good restaurants etc) and there’s an established ex-pat community if that’s important to you.

On the downside they both describe living in houses with bars on the windows behind high walls with electric gates. You open the gate from the car, drive in, wait until it’s closed then get out your car – keeping an eye out for anyone driving, or running, in behind you. One of them has twice had calls from his wife whilst we’ve been away on project to say that there has been someone in their garden after breaking in to a neighbouring house. If something happens you (or your alarm system) calls an armed private security company because the police are hopeless. The response is quite quick as they are constantly patrolling the neighbourhood.

One of the guys I know has a young family. He continually talks about returning to NZ before they need to go to school as he doesn’t believe that SA is the right environment for them to grow up in.

They are both quite clear that Jo’burg is much worse than Cape Town and neither would live there, but I imagine there are better and worse parts (as with every city/area).

There also seems to be a lot of concern amongst ex-pats about the direction the country (and economy) might take with the election of Jacob Zuma. If you don’t have permanent roots and investments this may be less of an issue for you, but worth keeping an eye on if you decide to go.

Like every opportunity, it would turn out to be what you made of it. I’m sure there will be on-line resources where you could contact ex-pat communities in/around SA to get a more direct experience. However, before committing to 2 years out there it would seem sensible to travel out (with your family) to spend a few weeks there to get a feel for things. Will your company offer you the chance to do this?

Clearly none of the above is my direct personal experience, but it may give you some things to think about.

cool – are your photos from that area?

Thanks M

It would be a new job, working indirectly for the SA government and after 2 years we would definately return. Trying to decide whether to go to an interview at the moment.

The posts bear our own feeling, the heart says yes but the head no….

no, they’re from the drakensberg mountains, which is one of the most amazing landscapes i’ve ever seen, and a fair way from jo’burg.

No idea what your line of business is, but given what you’ve just said (new job, contract indirectly for the government) it’s worth factoring the risk of the contract/project failing into your decision. Clearly nothing is ever guaranteed, but the situation is slightly different if you’re on home turf when it all goes wrong.

Probably all depends on who you’re employed by, where they’re based, how big/stable/dependant on this project they are, and the general level of risk in your industry/sector – all of which you will be far better placed to decide on than anyone here 😉

M, fair point – pretty stable, its for the West African Cable System (New fibre optic sea cable between UK and SA currently under construction) – I would be working for the consortiun (SA Gov, Cable and Wireless and various major African telcos), negotiating contracts with major telcos across europe for them – hence the job would move back to europe after 2 years

OK, sounds like a relatively safe proposition. On a side note my colleagues are resolutely anti-SAA when it comes to flying…

Woodey – My partner lives in Jo’burg. I was there until 2 weeks ago and I’ll be back there soon.

If you can tell me where the company is based and where you think you’d be living I can tell you anything you need to know about the area.

When people say “Jo’burg” they don’t usually mean Jo’burg central, they mean the outskirts. Its just like London. You can work in London but be a long long way from Buckingham palace.

If you do come over we’ll meet up for a ride.

On the downside they both describe living in houses with bars on the windows behind high walls with electric gates. You open the gate from the car, drive in, wait until it’s closed then get out your car – keeping an eye out for anyone driving, or running, in behind you.

I just can’t imagine living like that. Sounds horrible.

My whole family live there, if you have good security in a decent part of joburg you will be fine.

They armed response unit are very very good. The only problem now is Zuma, lots of white south africans want out because they feel he may be the new Mugabi. Whether they are just paranoid or if this will turn into reality is unclear.

There are lots of very good private schools around the area where the standard is as good as or better than English education, the standard of live is very high and you will enjoy yourself on a UK salary.

If I got the chance I would, but bear in mind that when my parents had me they moved back to the UK because didn’t feel it was a good place to bring up a child.

I passed through a few years ago, I can’t remember which suburb of Joburg we stayed in. We were terribly keyed up about it before we arrived, people had given us the impression that it was going to be like Black Hawk Down. Where we were staying it was simply not very exciting.

People had security, there were guards with shotguns at the petrol station etc, but the locals were fairly relaxed about it. Everyone said “it’s not that bad around here“, and they actually said that wherever we went in South Africa. I suspect their security industry of being a bit excitable, but I don’t know. 🙂

I was there on business for 3 days last year and would never consider living there. We were staying and working in one of the best suburbs (Sandton) but even there, every house has high walls with razor wire and a large security company plaque on their wall. We had our taxi provided by the company as you cannot trust even the registered ones. Downtown is, I understand, now almost a ghetto as all the companies have moved out to better areas

They armed response unit are very very good

Scary enough that they are needed

I wouldn’t.

My friend was back in Joburg at Christmas visiting her folks. They drove into the garage, hadn’t noticed 2 guys follow them through the gates, next thing they knew my friend and her nan had guns to their heads. They were robbed of all money, phones, jewellery etc, When they then tried to relieve her mum of her belongings she tried to reason with them, at which point they shot the family dog in the head as a warning. We thank god that her brother and father were not with them, it would have ended tragically. She will never go back to SA again now.

Didn’t Loui Theroux do a program on the place a while ago…?
It was the bit where that chap said he’d put someones baby in the oven to get them to hand over cash that kind of swayed my opinion.
I’ve two little ones, & no amount of cash, trimmings, career progression or lifestyle aspirations would get me to put them at risk.
Sorry, but some things are more important.

On the downside they both describe living in houses with bars on the windows behind high walls with electric gates. You open the gate from the car, drive in, wait until it’s closed then get out your car – keeping an eye out for anyone driving, or running, in behind you.

I just can’t imagine living like that. Sounds horrible.

It sounds bad but really, Manchester is quite a nice place.

“I’ve two little ones, & no amount of cash, trimmings, career progression or lifestyle aspirations would get me to put them at risk.”

Me neither mate, thats why I am trying to understand if the risks are realy that bad or just being whipped up by the media.

The UK is hardly the perfect coutry either eh?

My dad went there on business last year – he was given an armed escort and he saw car jackings and robberies taking place on the main streets. The daughter of a friend of his was raped in front of her children, which subsequently resulted in the break up of her marriage. There’s no way I’d live there if I had a young family.

Whatever the situation with crime in the UK, I don’t think we have anything to compare to Johannesburg.

A friend is working on a pipeline out there at the moment, he has some horific stories of armed guys cutting the fence to get in, lions in the compound, a hippo in the pool, guard on the gate getting shot and burnt, first course he did was anti-car jacking after landing

however, he is still alive and finds it quite amusing

sending the pipeline through a township shanty town, he is not looking forward too

Got to agree with Alwyn, I was born in Pretoria, but aged 5 my dad decided to move us to the UK..
Still got family out there, and more faimily in North Africa…

Given the choice, I would head North.

Home is a far nicer area to look at, but its no place to be, my mum has just come back, and was horrifed as to what was going on..

I would love to eventually go back there to live, but I have a nasty feeling that it would never be viable.

I haven’t been there but I have family in the Jo’berg area. They have moved out of the city and live in gated enclosures with all the security as described above. guns are carried in the car at all times.

its not a life I would like to live.

No way for me. No money is worth living like that

hmmm, well we certainly didn’t carry guns around in the car. sounds like it’s a bit worse than when we were there which, admittedly, was in 1992!

The UK is hardly the perfect country either eh?

I know mate. I was dead set on a move down under but mrs wasnt so keen. She’s started warming to the idea though so you never know.
As a slight aside, we have our own place in North Africa, The Gambia to be precise. It’s set inside a guarded compound but as a country its safe enough. Crime is relatively rare save for the odd pick-pocket etc. We had the unfortunate experience of visiting a Police station once, where they were metering out “justice” to a car thief. I think a lot of it was for our benefit, but the chap was beaten sensless in front of us. Burglaries are font page news over there so thankfully quite rare.

Common sense has to prevail though & there are places I’d be wary of going at night over there.

As regards the UK, I thought I was going to get a kicking the other night from a gang in broad daylight. I had the audacity to sound my bell at them along the cycle path in Lichfield. And I had our two boys with me in the trailer.

Yeah, you thought you might get a kicking, it’s just like South Africa isn’t it.

A guy I work with is from Jo’burg and he said he’d never go back.

Is it also true that most people there are pretty racist?

I have been out there half a dozen times with work, for a week each time. Despite being there on company expenses, Business Class travel, nice hotel etc etc I hated it. No way I would live there (for the security issues mentioned already) and no way I would subject my wife and kids to the “lifestyle” (gated compound living)

I had no idea it was that bad!!
Just goes to show that it certainly makes sense to consult the STW massive.
Decision made – no way
Cheers
Woodey

My uncle has been out there nearly 30 years – he seems to get car-jacked or burgled every other year, despite security and a pack of semi-wild dogs.

Unless it was a dream job, I wouldn’t go. Even then, I’d leave the wife and kids behind.

Move and stick to a nice ‘area’.

Car jacking security device to car and alarm to home. Streetwise knowledge helps and enjoy yourselves.

NO WAY!